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Talk:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Former featured article candidate The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.
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Removing LDS Church [ edit ]

There are still many uses of LDS Church throughout the article. Can those be changed to either The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or just the Church once referred to once? To coincide with previous comments on President Nelson's recommendations? Oaktree126 (talk) 16:33, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

That would be great, but I’m afraid they won't do that. Doc202020 (talk) 23:55, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
Please see WP:LDSMOS for guidance on Wikipedia-wide standards for referring to this church. —C.Fred (talk) 00:58, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

I agree. The usage of LDS has already become archaic. Maybe in the near future that will be possible. MihaelMaxenglish1 (talk) 06:54, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion [ edit ]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 02:52, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

If somebody has the time to get the new logo in a suitably small size and upload it to en.wiki, that will be helpful. The logo currently used is up for deletion from Commons for failure to be properly licensed. —C.Fred (talk) 13:52, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
It looks like DatBot already resized it to an appropriately low resolution. ~Awilley (talk) 01:45, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

LDS Church is Polytheistic [ edit ]

The LDS Church believes that God the Heavenly Father, the Holy Ghost and Jesus are three different Gods. ConnieBland (talk) 20:48, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

This has come up here and several other places before. I'm going to paraphrase some things I said many years ago in one of those discussions. There are numerous statements in uniquely LDS scripture that describe a belief in "one God" (eg 2 Nephi 31:21, Mosiah 15:1-5, Alma 11:26-37, Mormon 7:7, D&C 20:28, Moses 1:20). I don't see the theological arguments that the LDS go through to reconcile their scriptures with their concept of the members of the Godhead/Trinity also being separate beings any more invalid than those used in the creeds of the early Christian church. Additionally, there a few modern quotes that show that the LDS self-identify as monotheists. For example, Bruce R. McConkie in "Mormon Doctrine":
"Monotheism is the doctrine or belief that there is but one God. If this is properly interpreted to mean that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost — each of whom is a separate and distinct godly personage — are one God, meaning one Godhead, then true saints are monotheists."
Also, Robert Millet, as the LDS co-author in "Claiming Christ":
"We believe that each of the members of the Godhead posses all of the attributes and qualities of godliness in perfection. We believe that the love and unity that exist among the three persons in the Godhead constitute a divine community that is occasionally referred to simply as “God” (see 2 Nephi 31:21; Alma 11:44; Mormon 7:7). In other words, we have no problem speaking of a Mormon monotheism in the sense that we believe in one God, one Godhead, one Trinity, one collection of divine persons who oversee and bless and save the human family."
Certainly Mormons are not strict monotheists (which also excludes mainstream Christianity) nor traditional Christian (Trinitarian) monotheists, but they are "explicitly and clearly monotheistic in the aim of their worship" (Encyclopedia of Psychology and Religion, Volume 2, pg 687). What statements in reliable sources directly support or explicitly use the label "polytheistic"? --FyzixFighter (talk) 22:19, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
Jesus is a separate God from the Heavenly Father who is also a God. They are separate beings from each other. Yes, they have a same purpose or similar purpose but they are separate entities. You are confusing the Godhead with Gods. Joseph Smith gave a sermon about many Gods. ConnieBland (talk) 23:11, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
To me, this just sounds like a type of original research – in this case, "original logic". Are there any reliable sources that state that the LDS Church is polytheistic? As demonstrated above, there are some that discuss it as a monotheistic faith. Rather that "polytheistic", I think that what User:ConnieBland may have in mind is henotheism as suggested by the King Follet discourse. I'm not sure that worshipping God and Jesus as part of the same Godhead means that the faith is polytheistic. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:03, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Every time I bring up the issue of multiple Gods in the LDS church communication here, I get deflections with the word Godhead. I didn't say Godhead, I said Gods. A Godhead is something different than a God or Gods. Putting a bunch of Gods together and calling it a singular Godhead, still means there are distinct Gods in that "pantheon". In LDS' version of Godhead, there are three separate personages or three separate beings with God-level powers, keyword is separate personages, or individuals. This means there is more than one God, three non-trinitarian Gods, since they are unique beings or separate and unique personages. Can we have a conversation about the multiple Gods in the LDS church without deflections of they are united in the same purpose, so they are one God, when they aren't one God, they are different gods, meaning they have their own distinct identities, they are not trinitarian (God taking multiple forms), so that sounds like multiple Gods, hence polytheism. I don't understand why LDS folks are afraid to be honest and admit the religion is polytheistic in nature? This is not original research, it's not original logic, this is a point of fact about multiple Gods in the LDS religion. Why pretend otherwise? ConnieBland (talk) 03:03, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
The points made in my previous comment still stand. It looks like original research or original logic. What you say makes logical sense, but where is a reliable source? There are reliable sources that describe the LDS Church as monotheistic. Whether the Godhead is different from the Gods that compose it is a philosophical/religious point upon which Christians no doubt differ. Essentially, you are equating non-trinitarianism with polytheism, and in most sources these are not the same thing. And BTW, you may wish to not just assume that everyone who might comment here is LDS, because not all of us are. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:40, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Do Mormons believe their Heavenly Mother is the same God as the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.48.94.32 (talk) 06:11, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

She's not part of the godhead and she is not officially worshipped. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:00, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
Not the same, then. Heavenly Mother (Mormonism) indicates it has sometimes been taught God the Father has more than one spouse. So there is the main godhead, which is officially worshiped, and at least one consort goddess which is not. Whatever that is, it's not monotheism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.48.94.32 (talk) 03:17, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
In the LDS church, clearly a non-trinitarian religion based on their doctrines, Jesus (known elsewhere as Jehova, Joshua, Yeshua) is considered a separate and distinct God from his biological father, who is called the Heavenly Father in the LDS church (known elsewhere as elohim, Yahweh), daddy too is a God. So right there you have two Gods, Jesus and his dad, the Heavenly father. That's not original research nor original logic, that's LDS church doctrine. Then you have the Holy Ghost, who is thought to be a spirit God, also considered a separate and distinct God, from God the father, and God the son, Jesus. That's three Gods, right there, Dad, Son and the spirit Holy Ghost. That's not monotheistic believing in three separate and distinct Gods. Calling three separate and distinct Gods, the Godhead or saying they are of one purpose, doesn't make them one shapeshifting God, like in trinitarianism, especially if the LDS church claims they are three separate, and distinct personages. This is doctrinal, not original logic, not original research, it's in the LDS holybooks. Now, the church teaches eternal progression, so that God the heavenly father, was once a human, who was resurrected and exalted, coming from a long line chain of gods. That's polytheistic or polytheism, not monotheistic, or monotheism. ConnieBland (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:41, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
ConnieBland, you may want to take a moment and read WP:Original research. Wikipedia can be a bit confusing for newcomers sometimes. A person can come to a talk page and make valid logical arguments and other editors will ignore then because the person didn't cite any reliable sources. We base the encyclopedia on published sources, not the logical arguments of individuals. In this particular case you have a point that the LDS have many figures that are gods, but they don't worship them in a way that would put them into a polytheism category. They generally just pray to the father. But what I just said is irrelevant. What matters is that scholars of religion—the people publishing the peer-reviewed papers and books—don't categorize the LDS as polytheistic. In fact Richard Bushman, the author of Mormonism: a very short introduction categories it as social trinitarian. ~Awilley (talk) 14:37, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Awilley, going forward I will cite sources for any assertions I propose if they are meant to be included in the encyclopedia's cannon. So I will restate that the LDS church is polytheistic because Joseph Smith it's founding father made unambiguous, and therefore very clear statements about its polytheistic nature during the last year of his life. In 1844 Joseph Smith said, "I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods." Source: History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, ed. B.H. Roberts, 2nd ed, rev., Salt Lake City: Deseret Books, 1980) or simplified (History of the Church 6:474). Note the keyword Gods, he didn't say God without the letter's' he said God with the letter 's'. A religion with multiple Gods is polytheism, not monotheism. The LDS has at least three Gods according to Joseph Smith in his statement above. ConnieBland (talk) 08:20, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
  • The appropriate term is Social Trinitarianism or even Henotheism. Richard Bushman has a good explanation,"Critics are wrong when they say Joseph Smith created a heaven of multiple gods like the pagan pantheons of Zeus and Thor. The gods in Joseph Smith’s heaven are not distinct, willful personalities pursuing their own purposes. The Christian trinity was Joseph’s model; the gods are one as Christ and the Father are one, distinct personalities unified in purpose and will. A free intelligence had to become one with God in order to become as God. The gods had formed an eternal alliance, welding their wills into one. The idea of earth life was to join that alliance and participate in the glory and power of the gods. The way to become a god was to conform to the order of heaven and receive light and truth. The unity and order Joseph strove to instill in the Church was a type of the higher unity among the gods in their heavens." Most Muslims interestingly feel that belief in any form of the Trinity is a rejection of monotheism (see Islamic view of the Trinity). By many peoples logic, the Catholic Church is polytheistic, since they actually pray and build statues to Saints, who then interfere in their lives. Why aren't Catholics labeled as polytheistic by the same logic? Regardless, you must cite a source that is representative of the prevailing scholarly view that specifically uses the term "polytheistic", otherwise it is WP:OR or WP:SYNTH Epachamo (talk) 11:31, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
  • That's a good explanation by Bushman. One that I have read – sorry, I can't for the life of me remember where – which explains why the church is monotheistic is the following. It focuses on worship. (1) Yes, there are other beings that are exalted "gods", but Latter-day Saints don't worship them. (2) The three members of the Godhead are worshipped, but there are not separate ways of worshipping them individually. Latter-day Saints don't worship God the Father in one way, and Jesus Christ in another way. Hence the unity in the worship is classed as monotheistic. I think it's a little bit too cute by half, but there you go. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:01, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
Mr. Good Olfactory, Here is a laundry list of sourced quote evidence about the LDS church founder Joseph Smith, and many of its important leaders making unambiguous statements about the plurality of Gods (polytheism) in the LDS church. Keep a focus on the word Gods with an 's'.

Plurality of Gods

“I wish to declare I have always an in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods.”

- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 6, p. 306

“In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it.”

- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 6, pp. 307, 308

“If we should take a million of worlds like this and number their particles, we should find that there are more Gods than there are particles of matter in those worlds.”

- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, v. 2, p. 345, February 18, 1855

“Each God, through his wife or wives, raises up a numerous family of sons and daughters.... [E]ach father and mother will be in a condition to multiply forever. As soon as each God has begotten many millions of male and female spirits... he, in connection with his sons, organizes a new world... where he sends both the male and female spirits to inhabit tabernacles of flesh and bones.... The inhabitants of each world are required to reverence, adore, and worship their own personal father who dwells in the Heaven which they formerly inhabited.”

- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, v. 1, p. 37

“Intelligent beings are organized to become Gods, even the sons of God, to dwell in the presence of the Gods, and become associated with the highest intelligencies [sic] that dwell in eternity.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 160, September 2, 1860

"New light is occasionally bursted into our minds, of the sacred scriptures, for which I am truly thankful. We shall by and by learn that we were with God in another world, before the foundation of the world, and had our agency; that we came into this world and have our agency, in order that we may prepare ourselves for a kingdom of glory; become archangels, even the sons of God where the man is neither without the woman nor the woman without the man in the Lord: A consummation of glory, and happiness, and perfection so greatly to be wished, that I would not miss of it for the fame of ten worlds."

- W.W. Phelps, Latter-day Saint Messenger and Advocate, v. 1, no. 9, p. 130, June 1835

"I will preach on the plurality of Gods. "Our text says, "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father." * * * My object was to preach the scriptures, and preach the doctrine they contain, there being a God above, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. * * *

"Eloheim is from the word Eloi, God, in the singular number; and by adding the word heim, it renders it Gods. It read first, "In the beginning the head of the Gods brought forth the Gods," or, as others have translated it, "The head of the Gods called the Gods together." * * * "The head God organized the heavens and the earth. In the beginning the heads of the Gods organized the heavens and the earth. * * * The head one of the Gods said, Let us make a man in our own image. I once asked a learned Jew, "If the Hebrew language compels us to render all words ending in heim in the plural, why not render the first Eloheim plural?" He replied, "That is the rule with few exceptions; but in this case it would ruin the Bible." He acknowledged I was right. * * *

"In the very beginning, the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through---Gods. The heads of the Gods appointed one God for us; and when you take that view of the subject, it sets one free to see all the beauty, holiness and perfections of the Gods."

- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 370-372, June 16, 1844

"Women are queens and priestesses but not gods. The Godhead, the 'Presidency of Heaven,' is a presidency of three male deities, similar to a stake presidency whose members each have wives who are responsible for domestic religious education but not ecclesiastical functions."

- Rodney Turner, retired BYU religion professor, Sunstone Panel Discussion, September 7, 1991.

“We don't hear about Heavenly Mother because she is only one of many wives of god.”

- Sister Maxine Hanks, Women and Authority, Ch.11, p.251

Here we can see the plurality of Gods was preached by the founder and some of his most devoted followers. ConnieBland (talk) 17:45, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

  • @ConnieBland:, You are missing the point. Nobody here denies that Mormonism teaches the plurality of Gods. It is the term "polytheism" that is still problematic and incorrect. Polytheism is the worship of multiple deities, arranged in a pantheon of autonomous superior beings. Mormons don't worship multiple deities, nor do they believe that the plurality of gods have their own agendas and purposes. None of your sources use the term "polytheism". All of the people you quoted would cringe at being called polytheists. Epachamo (talk) 21:50, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
Epachamo, You're moving the goal post by narrowing the definition of Polytheism/polytheistic. It doesn't require that you actually worship multiple Gods or Deities to be a polytheist or practice polytheism, it only requires that you believe they (multiple Gods) exist. Gathering citations Pat Zuckeran. Joseph Smith taught the multiplicity of deities or Gods. Joseph Smith taught that the Heavenly Father is a personage, a separate and a distinct God, and his son Jesus is a personage, a separate and a distinct God, and that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, a separate and a distinct God, these three personages, are separate and distinct Gods, which make up together as a team a non-trinitarian plurality of Gods. Teams of people are not considered one person. A team of separate and distinct Gods are not considered a single God, even if they happen to be father and son, or family-related. There were many Gods family related in Greek mythology, they weren't considered one god because they were father and son, or father and daughter, or a family of Gods.
Christianity has taught monotheism from its foundation, the belief in the existence of one God. Mormonism believes in the existence of a plurality of gods. According to Mormonism, there are an infinite number of planets like earth in the universe, each with their god or gods who were once men who have evolved into godhood. Mormon theologian and Apostle Bruce McConkie states, "[A] plurality of gods exist . . . there is an infinite number of holy personages, drawn from worlds without number, who have passed on to exaltation and are thus gods." Source: Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, (Salt Lake: Bookcraft, 1991), 576-577. This is clearly the belief in polytheism, the belief in multiple Gods. You don't have to worship them all to believe there are multiple Gods. Mormons pray through Jesus Christ, a unique personage, a separate and distinct God. They pray in his name to the heavenly father, who is also a separate and distinct God.
Joseph Smith wrote, "In the beginning, the head of the gods called a council of the gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and (the) people in it." Source: Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1976), 349; quoted in Walter Martin, Kingdom of the Cults, (Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers, 1997), 220. A council of Gods, sounds like a pantheon of Gods, coming together to talk and converse with each other. That's not monotheism. One does not have to worship all those gods, just the belief in them is the only requirement to be polytheistic or believe in polytheism.
Joseph Smith in The Pearl of Great Price states in the Book of Abraham, "And they (the gods) said: let there be light and there was light. And they (the Gods) comprehended the light, . . . and the gods called the light Day and the darkness they (the Gods) called Night. . . ." In these two chapters, the plural designation "gods" is used over fifty times. That's a five zero, not 5 times, but fifty times.
The Mormons/LDS reject the traditional Christian view of the Trinity as being in error. Joseph Smith wrote,

Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God [anyhow]--three in one and one in three. . .It is curious organization… All are crammed into one God according to sectarianism (Christian faith). It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God--he would be a giant or a monster. (Joseph Smith, Teachings, 372) Church president James Talmage stated, "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are as distinct in persons and individualities as are any three personages in mortality." James Talmage, The Articles of Faith (Salt Lake: Deseret Book Company, 1984), p 37.

LDS/Mormon theologian Bruce McConkie states, "There are three Gods--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost." Source: McConkie, p 317. He further explains that, "[T]hree separate personages--Father, Son, and Holy Ghost comprise the Godhead. As each of these persons is a god, it is evident, from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of gods exists. To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only gods we worship." Source: McConkie, p 576.
God's progression from man to God is clearly stated throughout Mormon literature. Joseph Smith wrote:

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! . . . I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. . . . He was once a man like us; yea that God himself, the Father dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did. Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1976), 321.

This quote becomes relevant to restate, "I wish to declare I have always an in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods." Joseph Smith, Jr History of the Church, v. 6, p. 306. Belief in a multitude of Gods is all that is needed to be polytheistic, rather than monotheistic, the belief in one and only one God.ConnieBland (talk) 05:44, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

  • @ConnieBland: Find a scholarly source that agrees with your use of the term "polytheism". Otherwise it is original research, no matter how right you are. Epachamo (talk) 12:50, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
What about using polytheism or polytheistic, as a placeholder descriptor (a thesaurus word), adjective, or noun, to summarize the nature of Mormonism in the lead. I noticed there aren't many sources in the lead, which tends to provide a birds-eye view summary. The reason I ask this is because there seems to be a long history of polytheism being taught throughout the Church's history (Polytheism as a thesaurus word for Plurality of Gods). The polytheism didn't just come from the Mormon prophet Joseph Smith, it was taught by its leaders throughout its bicentennial existence, especially during it's post-Smith era. For instance, “If we should take a million of worlds like this and number their particles, we should find that there are more Gods than there are particles of matter in those worlds.” - Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, v. 2, p. 345, February 18, 1855.
Knowing founder J. Smith was killed in 1844, it's clear 1855 is in the relative aftermath given the age of the this "restorationist" religion. We see from all the examples above there are many sources indicating a plurality of Gods, which means many Gods, or Polytheism/Polytheistic. Would using a 'plurality of Gods' be acceptable if Polytheism/Polytheistic is too controversial a term even if it's true and even if it's a perfect thesaurus word for Plurality of Gods? For example, Brigham Young said, “Intelligent beings are organized to become Gods, even the sons of God, to dwell in the presence of the Gods, and become associated with the highest intelligences [sic] that dwell in eternity.” - Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 160, September 2, 1860. We see here that all humans have the potential to become Gods and even multitudes of Jesus (Sons of God), because of the way they are organized and the potential to thereby attain eternity and dwell eternally.
More sources, with some repeats, but with greater context. Just before Joseph Smith died, he said, "I will preach on the plurality of Gods.

"Our text says, "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father." * * * My object was to preach the scriptures, and preach the doctrine they contain, there being a God above, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. * * * "Eloheim is from the word Eloi, God, in the singular number; and by adding the word heim, it renders it Gods. It read first, "In the beginning, the head of the Gods brought forth the Gods," or, as others have translated it, "The head of the Gods called the Gods together." * * * "The head God organized the heavens and the earth. In the beginning, the heads of the Gods organized the heavens and the earth. * * * The head one of the Gods said, Let us make a man in our own image. I once asked a learned Jew, "If the Hebrew language compels us to render all words ending in heim in the plural, why not render the first Eloheim plural?" He replied, "That is the rule with few exceptions, but in this case it would ruin the Bible." He (the learned Jew) acknowledged I was right. * * * "In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through---Gods. The heads of the Gods appointed one God for us; and when you take that view of the subject, it sets one free to see all the beauty, holiness and perfections of the Gods." - Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 370-372, June 16, 1844. Joseph Smith is interpreting the bible as Polytheism/Polytheistic, that's not original research or original logic.

The Polytheism of the LDS Church, is not some passing trend that got Whitewashed by nervous Mormon leadership who were afraid of being outside the realm of mainstream credal Christianity, it's still being taught even in modern times, to modern students. Here is an example: "Women are queens and priestesses but not gods. The Godhead, the 'Presidency of Heaven,' is a presidency of three male deities, similar to a stake presidency whose members each have wives who are responsible for domestic religious education but not ecclesiastical functions." - Rodney Turner, retired BYU religion professor, Sunstone Panel Discussion, September 7, 1991. It's even being taught at the premier Mormon university, the epicenter of LDS higher education. Why are we getting hung up on Polytheism/Polytheistic, a thesaurus facsimile word for the Plurality of Gods? Are synonyms not allowed in Wikipedia in such instances?
There is no original logic or original research, this is absolutely incontrovertible proof the founder of the religion taught Polytheism, on many occasions, and even interpreted the bible as being polytheistic. There might not be sources that use the term polytheistic or polytheism to describe Mormonism, but why can't Polytheism be used as a synonym for the Plurality of Gods? ConnieBland (talk) 01:04, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
  • "Why can't Polytheism be used as a synonym for the Plurality of Gods?" Because scholars themselves make the distinction. It doesn't matter what you or I think about the subject, only reliable sources, and they are resounding in specifically not using the term "polytheism". Epachamo (talk) 21:56, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Most monotheistic religions have multiple immortal beings (angels, resurrected individuals, sentinels to heaven, etc.) Islam has the angel Gabriel and various groups in Judaism have ressurected beings and angels as well. Catholics and Orthodox Christians have Saints, and certain Protestant churches believe in angels and certainly in ressurection.

The majority of people who think the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints reflects polytheism get confused by the common use of the word "God" and "gods," (both uppercase and lower. There isn't exactly a style guide haha). In effect, god means a perfected immortal being. People who get them confused conflate "god" with "God the Father" (understandibly— it's the same exact word).

The only being that is worshipped by members of the church is God the Father, often refered to as Elohim or El. All others, while important, are not "God the Father."

Now, if you want to edit the article and say Latter-day Saints are polytheistic, you're free to do that as long as you cite your sources which say such. Remember, good sources are all that matters. Have a great day, folks. MihaelMaxenglish1 (talk) 07:34, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

I saw this conversation and I would like to contribute. I am a member of the Church and we don't believe that there is 1 god. We believe in something called the Godhead which includes God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. Now we do mainly "worship" God but I would say that we also technically "worship" Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost as well. I could probably find something on the Church website that states this if you would like me to. Blaze The Wolf | Proud Furry and Wikipedia Editor (talk) 14:56, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Official Church Symbol as Preview Image [ edit ]

I noticed that when there is a link to this page in another Wikipedia article, the image it pulls up is not the official church symbol that is the main/first image on this page when it is clicked on. Instead it has a black cross on a white background. Shall we fix that? Susanna Neal (talk) 00:10, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

What is this "another Wikipedia article"? Editor2020 (talk) 21:41, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
She means *any* other Wikipedia article with a link to this church's page shows a black cross image. For example, hover here: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I agree. This should be fixed. I don't know how, though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Davemc0 (talkcontribs) 04:06, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

My guess is it is due to how mw:Page Previews selects the image. The API specification and PageImages extension pages on MediaWiki might also be helpful. It might be due to the non-free nature of the official image? I'd look for a page of another church that doesn't have this issue and see if we can tease out how it's doing it. --FyzixFighter (talk) 14:41, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
I also agree that this should be fixed as the Church does not use the Christian Cross as their symbol (I would know because I'm a member). It does sort of bother me but I can't fix it myself. Blaze Wolf &#124 Proud Furry and Wikipedia Editor (talk) 18:33, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

I also agree with this proposal. I don't see any reason why it might be rejected, and seeing as no one has opposed it. I suggest that the change be made as soon as possible. Reywas85 (talk) 02:32, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

It appears that the scripting for the image parameter in the {{Infobox Christian denomination}} template is too complex for the page preview engine to render the image from that template in the preview, so it falls through to the next available image. If the cross is not suitable to show in the preview, maybe consider removing the image parameter in the denomination infobox and instead display the official image above the denomination infobox separately. Initial attempt at implementing an alternative did not result in the expected preview image, though it is possible the preview engine caches image at the server side. I will leave further investigation of the matter for other editors.--Jeffro77 (talk) 12:18, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Jeffro77 for trying. I don't think it's a scripting thing for the image parameter of the template. Rather, I'm pretty sure it's the algorithm that picks the image for page previews. From what I can tell, it goes through all the images in the lede and scores them based on ????. For whatever reason, the image in the the {{Christianity sidebar}} is scoring higher than the image in the infobox template. Maybe if we found a a few pages that use the infobox and the sidebar in the lede and use the infobox image for the preview, maybe then we could figure out something about the algorithm.
My best guess is it's either the image size or aspect ratio - the algorithm prefers wide rather than tall images, but without some way to probe the scoring or the algorithm, we're fumbling around in the dark on how to force the algorithm to pick the better picture. The one thing I can think of is to put the sidebar in the next section. It'll be awkward positioning for the sidebar, but it might fix the preview problem. I'm going to try that shortly... --FyzixFighter (talk) 01:31, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
Also this link is helpful for evaluating what the page preview image will be. --FyzixFighter (talk) 01:34, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
It seems you're right about it picking an image from the lead based on some kind of criteria. The layout isn't great with the Christianity template in the History section, but nor is it awful. So depending on how much of a concern it is to have the other image in the preview, the current arrangement might be best.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:03, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Notes in the References. [ edit ]

There are notes throughout the References section. They may appear to be quotes from sources. I separated one from its source that happens to be "inaccurate" (40.9 + 47.8 is not greater than 100). I assume another note/quote was rewording of statements in the source article. A separate Notes section should be created and the notes separated from sources/references. This is a task for a "subject matter expert" not me. User-duck (talk) 19:22, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

What is this?