User talk:Awilley

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This historical depiction of the coat of arms of Vermont was illustrated by American engraver Henry Mitchell in State Arms of the Union, published in 1876 by Louis Prang. The escutcheon depicts a green landscape, beyond which are high mountains and a yellowish sky; in the center grows a pine tree, between three erect yellow sheaves and a red cow. The state's official motto, "Freedom and Unity", appears below the shield.Illustration credit: Henry Mitchell; restored by Andrew Shiva

Editor seeking to exploit editing restrictions [ edit ]

When you were considering placing 1RR on me, you expressed the view that other editors would not seek to exploit this. However, check out the editor SunCrow who reverts long-standing content, repeatedly restores it and rarely if every starts talk page discussions about it. When I alerted him about his edit-warring, and the fact that he was edit-warring against multiple editors and with support from no one, the editor explicitly spoke of joy regarding the voluntary editing restrictions I had committed to[1], which would in effect make it easier for this user to bully bad changes into articles without consensus. The editor has after making the remark subsequently edit-warred out content on the Elaine Chao page in brazen violation of WP:BRD, and clearly with the expectation that I will be unable to revert him. In other words, this editor is brazenly violating Wikipedia policy in practice and in spirit, and is intentionally exploiting the fact that other editors have committed not to edit-war (even when WP:BRD is on their side and there is no consensus for the other editor's changes).[2][3] Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:34, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

I will look into it. Sorry, been busy with some things IRL. My participation here will be spotty through the holidays probably. ~Awilley (talk) 04:21, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
Snooganssnoogans, my first problem with what you did here is that you went to an administrator with accusations against me without having the basic decency to ping me so that I'd be aware of your complaint. Instead, you went behind my back.
My second problem is with the way you characterized my words. I did not "explicitly [speak] of joy about your editing restrictions". I said that the restrictions about "making 'an honest effort to understand the concerns of other editors' and 'ask[ing] how those concerns can be reflected in the text without undermining the content of the sources and NPOV'" were my favorite parts of your restrictions. (My point, of course, was that I'm still waiting to see you actually take this new, collaborative approach; instead, I see much of the same attitude and behavior that got you placed on restriction in the first place.) So you distorted, exaggerated, and misrepresented my words. Unfortunately, in my experience, it is routine for you to respond to conflict by distorting, exaggerating, and misrepresenting the words of others. You've done it to me many times. It's dishonest, you do it over and over again, I have challenged you about it over and over again, and you continue to do it. This makes it impossible to WP:AGF in dealing with you.
You asserted that I have been taking advantage of your editing restrictions. To show that my heart is in the right place, I have self-reverted my recent edit on the Elaine Chao page (see to restore the disputed content. (I honestly cannot remember if I had your restrictions in mind when I made this edit.) In the future, I will not take advantage of your editing restrictions to gain the upper hand in content disputes. SunCrow (talk) 19:56, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

The same editor is immediately back to exploiting my editing restrictions in order to edit-war longstanding content out of an article[4]. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:28, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

No, Snooganssnoogans, I did not take advantage of your editing restrictions. I reverted your edit because it didn't make any sense to me and because your edit summary--like many other things you say--was false. I would have responded the same way regardless of your editing restrictions. On a different note, this is now the second time that you have gone behind my back to Awilley without having the decency to ping me. That is an underhanded and cowardly thing to do. Awilley, I regret the fact that your talk page is playing host to this ridiculous back-and-forth. SunCrow (talk) 15:34, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
@Snooganssnoogans:, On this diff, "removing minutiae" is a better reason for removing content than "long-standing" is for restoring content. If you have sources stating that the RNC chairwoman pressured candidates to falsely suggest wrong-doing and election fraud, maybe you could just state that explicitly instead of the mealy-mouthed "Politico reported that McDaniel called on the Republican candidate Martha McSally to be more aggressive during the ballot counting process". (Alternatively, if the sources don't say that explicitly, then you shouldn't either.)
@SunCrow: Please try harder to respect WP:Status quo. Also, your comments on the talk page should be focusing on content, not other editors. If you continue to make statements like "The problem here is that Snooganssnoogans is full of bologna" on talk pages I'm likely to slap you with User:Awilley/Discretionary sanctions#No personal comments ~Awilley (talk) 20:33, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Joyous Season [ edit ]

Clean-up [ edit ]

There may be need to rein in the Snoog, particularly this, which pretty unambiguously violates WP:BADSITES and for good measure, rules about wp:outing. What do you think @TonyBallioni:?

Pinging @Snooganssnoogans: for transparency. 🌿 SashiRolls t · c 21:00, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Is this a joke? Today, you insinuated that I and/or other editors were working for David Brock.[5] You have previously made the same David Brock accusations on off-wiki sites (under your own username) against the editors Calton and Neutrality, saying "there are no shortage of paying customers. David Brock, for one (whose pages Calton & Neutrality watch over with hawkish eye)...". You have on multiple other occasions suggested that other editors are working for hire and/or conspiring together. I asked you to stop casting these aspersions. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 22:06, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
Nope, not a joke at all. I did however make a light-hearted comment: I said "things have a tendency to heat up when you talk about Brock" (§). Which is true. They do. at dinner. On Wikipedia. etc. Your link to Eric Barbour's comment on "Wikipedia Sucks," I notice, dates from 2017. I was not a member of en.wp in 2017. This is shortly after I had been blocked for calling out a former admin sockpuppeting to astro-turf anti-Trump pages, who later astro-turfed anti-Kavanaugh pages.
In short, you need to stop violating policy (WP:LINKLOVE) WP:OUTING, and bury the hatchet. I know you're upset that I dug up your scandalously deceptive Dec 25, 2017 edit to CounterPunch because this page got me thinking about previous articles about media bias, but lashing out is not appropriate. 🌿 SashiRolls t · c 22:48, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, not ignoring you, but I'm not sure what, if anything, to do here. Try to get along? ~Awilley (talk) 18:07, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
That's rich. Hmmm...correct me if I'm wrong, but based on what I've seen, it appears tbans are reserved for...oh, nevermind. I have better things to do. Atsme Talk 📧 18:40, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

You've got mail [ edit ]

Hello, Awilley. Please check your email; you've got mail!

It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.Doug Wellertalk 12:14, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
Got it, thanks ~Awilley (talk) 18:04, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – January 2020 [ edit ]

News and updates for administrators from the past month (December 2019).

Guideline and policy news


  • The fourth case on Palestine-Israel articles was closed. The case consolidated all previous remedies under one heading, which should make them easier to understand, apply, and enforce. In particular, the distinction between "primary articles" and "related content" has been clarified, with the former being the entire set of articles whose topic relates to the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly interpreted rather than reasonably construed.
  • Following the 2019 Arbitration Committee elections, the following editors have been appointed to the Arbitration Committee: Beeblebrox, Bradv, Casliber, David Fuchs, DGG, KrakatoaKatie, Maxim, Newyorkbrad, SoWhy, Worm That Turned, Xeno.


  • This issue marks three full years of the Admin newsletter. Thanks for reading!

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 20:06, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Bernie / Media [ edit ]

Hi Awilley. You know what I notice about the list of diffs Snoog has provided on his talk page in response to your request? Each and every time he says "it was reverted", it's actually Snoog who is doing the reverting. Check the diffs of reverts; each of those reverts is by Snoog. Why the heck is Snoog reverting so many of Sashi's edits in the first place?

Secondly, the edit summaries Snoog uses for reverts are basically all the same ("has nothing to do with media bias" or something similar). Basically, the objection is that the added content is irrelevant. Why is Snoog singlehandedly "gatekeeping" content in the article? Like, is it the "rule" that anytime anyone wants to add something to this article, it has to meet Snoog's approval, or else Snoog gets to revert it, forcing the editor to go to talk page discussion and get consensus for, effectively, every single edit?

Thirdly, when Snoog says "reverted by a second editor", guess who the second editor is? MrX! You may recall that Sashi complained about Snoog and X tag-teaming articles and referring to them as "SnooX", which, IIRC, they took great exception to, considered a personal attack, and for which, IIRC, Sashi was sanctioned (I think by you Awilley but I'm too lazy to look it up). Yet, here they are, still working together to revert Sashi. I pointed this out at the ANEW report with these diffs: Snoog, X, Snoog, X, all from the Bernie media article.

Notice that when Sashi makes and edit and Snoog reverts it, Snoog expects Sashi to go to the talk page and discuss. But when Snoog makes an edit and Sashi reverts it, Snoog doesn't have to go to the talk page – instead, Mr. X will revert the revert.

Is the solution for me to join Sashi's tag team? Maybe Mr Ernie, Sashi, and I should team up, and then it'll be 3-against-2 vs. Snoog and X? That's the solution, right? No, of course not. We can't have this type of coordinated OWNership editing.

From where I'm sitting, what's happening to Sashi in AP2 is exactly what happened to Sashi in GMO. In both areas, there are small groups of editors–a cabal–who are coordinating to WP:OWN the topic area. Sashi has a habit of rather forcefully challenging these cabals. The cabals work together to get Sashi sanctioned and thereby removed from the topic area. They succeeded in GMOs. They are close in AP2.

Awilley, BRD is not a policy, and it can be abused, and it is being abused here, where one editor or a group of editors are routinely reverting all of another editor's edits. This has been going on for months if not years (and Sashi is not the only "victim"). It troubles me to focus on "Sashi is not following BRD" or "Sashi is calling them 'SnooX'" while ignoring the obvious–what I will characterize as–WP:OWNership, tag-teaming, obstruction, and harassment. I know you've been involved in this for some time, trying to mediate the dispute on all sides, and I just hope that you'll also look at this other aspect. Sashi's complaints may at time be uncivil, but they may also be well-founded. Levivich 16:53, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Levivich I have not been "tag teaming". My edits are made entirely of my own volition irrespective of whether other editors make similar edits or make edits that are contrary to my edits. I stopped editing the article more than two weeks ago because of the hardcore advocacy and unpleasantness of a couple of editors. If you want to make accusations against me, you need to produce diffs that clearly depict the behavior you're claiming rather than casting WP:ASPERSIONS. - MrX 🖋 17:40, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
MrX, like Snoog, you know that you can get away with fundamentally misrepresenting sources as you did here without any consequences. You and Snoog are both very good at it and are protected by a certain number of identified administrators. I could give a lot of examples, I hope you won't be sad that I've only provided one for each of you (for now). Of course, the game is to say that's all about "content" and that misrepresenting sources is not a behavioural issue. If this goes to ArbCom or Le Monde, SDZ, NYT, Intercept, Media Matters, ^^ etc. I would not be averse to coordinating the collection of the ample evidence of tag-teaming for those who those who want it reported on (you can find me off-wiki if need be). Incidentally, when Snoogans is a subject of conversation on my talk page, they have every right to respond, as I made clear here. But I'd just as soon that all of these multipliers of negative energy (MrX, Snoog, O3000, WMSR) stay off my TP and I have told them so. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 19:11, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
Now you're casting aspersions too and plotting some sort of off-wiki coordination? Do you really think this is a good trajectory for you, SashiRolls? If you think you have evidence that my conduct is sanction-worthy, please take it to a notice board. Otherwise, it would be great if you could just leave me alone and keep your opinions about "negative energy" to yourself. Thanks. - MrX 🖋 19:22, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
This response is most adequately characterized as Gish gallop (anyone who reads SR's comments and wonders "what does this have to do with anything?", know that you're not alone). And it's replete with yet another ludicrous and cringeworthy insinuation that SR is sitting on bombshell revelations about other Wikipedia editors that he might, just might, take to the NY Times (this is something that SR has claimed for years). If I recall correctly, he's literally made the same cryptic "I'll have the media expose you all!" accusation on this very talk page before. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:24, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
If you have an accusation against me, you had damn well better provide evidence. And if you don’t want me on your talk page, don't make odd PAs. O3000 (talk) 19:35, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
1) "Why the heck is Snoog reverting so many of Sashi's edits in the first place?" SR is the most active editor on the page. Thus, there are many edits, and some of them are bad and get reverted. Note also that I have not reverted anywhere close to most of SR's edits. Only the bad ones.
2) Yes, why am I allowed to make edits on Wikipedia? I abide by BRD when I add new content. I expect the same of others.
3) Your insinuation that I and MrX are these unprincipled hacks who not only conspire together but who specifically edit to get others banned rather than improve the encyclopedia is pathetic. Please substantiate any inconsistencies in how both of us edit that would support your conspiracy theory. For example, demonstrate brazen flip-flopping on issues and policies just to "entrap" SR or whatever nonsense it is that you're pushing.
4) Your remarks about you and Mr Ernie joining content disputes that you have no substantive opinion on is again an insinuation that I and MrX edit in an unprincipled fashion, and that the content under dispute is not what is motivating our edits.
5) So there are apparently multiple groups of editors across diverse parts of Wikipedia conspiring together against SR?
6) "Awilley, BRD is not a policy, and it can be abused, and it is being abused here, where one editor or a group of editors are routinely reverting all of another editor's edits." This last part is a falsehood, and illustrative of the fact that you have no clue what's going on at the Media coverage of Bernie Sanders page, yet feel the need to instinctively side with SR regardless of dispute. The Media coverage of Bernie Sanders page is largely a reflection of whatever SR wants the page to say because he (1) has steamrolled over every edit that challenges new content that he adds, (2) reverted or changed content added by others, and (3) driven most other editors off the page. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:44, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
Lastly, the list of diffs that I provided is only part of SR's many many brazen BRD violations on that one page over the course of 3 weeks. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:50, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
Just to be clear, this isn't about being pro-Sashi, it's about being anti-AP2 cabal. Sashi is not the only editor to experience this–obviously I've experienced this myself. And as for diffs, I included diffs in my post above; I've included diffs every time I've complained about this; everybody is tired of my diffs. We're way past diffs; we're on to what are we doing about it. Levivich 18:07, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
The hypocrisy is astounding. Very very recently you led an effort to impose sanctions on me because you were purportedly so upset about my edit-warring. Now you're singing a completely different tune, actively defending SR's brazen and repeated BRD violations, including brightline edit-warring violations, which make it impossible for anyone else to substantively contribute to the page. In particular, it makes it impossible for me, due to my voluntary editing restrictions, to have any say on the article (which is perhaps the reason why you say that edit-warring is now OK). How is that in any way principled? And at the same time that you're flip-flopping 180 degrees on this issue, you have the temerity to cast aspersions and accuse others of conspiring together and editing in unprincipled ways (no diffs were provided for this). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 18:13, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Awilley, I object to Sashi removing my defense of his PA[6]. His phrase What a coincidence has become tiresome. O3000 (talk) 22:32, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – February 2020 [ edit ]

News and updates for administrators from the past month (January 2020).

Guideline and policy news

  • Following a request for comment, partial blocks are now enabled on the English Wikipedia. This functionality allows administrators to block users from editing specific pages or namespaces rather than the entire site. A draft policy is being workshopped at Wikipedia:Partial blocks.
  • The request for comment seeking the community's sentiment for a binding desysop procedure closed with wide-spread support for an alternative desysoping procedure based on community input. No proposed process received consensus.

Technical news

  • Twinkle now supports partial blocking. There is a small checkbox that toggles the "partial" status for both blocks and templating. There is currently one template: {{uw-pblock}}.
  • When trying to move a page, if the target title already exists then a warning message is shown. The warning message will now include a link to the target title. [7]


  • Following a recent arbitration case, the Arbitration Committee reminded administrators that checkuser and oversight blocks must not be reversed or modified without prior consultation with the checkuser or oversighter who placed the block, the respective functionary team, or the Arbitration Committee.


Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 15:05, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Happy First Edit Day! [ edit ]

Doris Miller [ edit ]

Awilley- I just saw the photo of Doris Miller on your Talk page. As a Navy veteran, I am familiar with this great sailor and his story, but it was nice to be reminded of him again. Thanks. GlassBones (talk) 22:49, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Double block templates on 15 November [ edit ]

Awilley, is your second block template at User talk:BattleshipGray from 15 November a mistake? Your two block templates there contradict each other. I thought you had merely blocked the account because the user had lost the password and created a new account (User:GlassBones) — no? I just noticed a post on Doug Weller's page, where YoPienso talks about your block for "abusing editing privileges". Maybe you'd better comment there. Bishonen | talk 20:11, 14 February 2020 (UTC).

I remember the block, but I don't know how that second template got there. It was a mistake...probably automated. I've stricken it. ~Awilley (talk) 20:24, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – March 2020 [ edit ]

News and updates for administrators from the past month (February 2020).

Guideline and policy news

  • Following an RfC, the blocking policy was changed to state that sysops must not undo or alter CheckUser or Oversight blocks, rather than should not.
  • A request for comment confirmed that sandboxes of established but inactive editors may not be blanked due solely to inactivity.

Technical news

  • Following a discussion, Twinkle's default CSD behavior will soon change, most likely this week. After the change, Twinkle will default to "tagging mode" if there is no CSD tag present, and default to "deletion mode" if there is a CSD tag present. You will be able to always default to "deletion mode" (the current behavior) using your Twinkle preferences.


Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 11:20, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

User GlassBones [ edit ]

This user has (i) again falsely claimed that I'm stalking his edits[8] and (ii) decided to stalk me to a page that he hasn't edited before just to revert me[9]. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:36, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Immediate violation of topic ban:[10]. Topic ban:[11] Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:03, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
Snooganssnoogans - I didn't go to the Presidency of Donald Trump page just to revert you. Yes, I changed your edit (I didn't revert the whole edit - just the problematic parts, which were significant). You used inaccurate, inflammatory language, and cited to a left-wing source that is not a Wikipedia reliable source in your edit. I requested that you discuss your proposed edits on the Talk page. But instead of doing that, and dealing with the issue directly and reasonably, you again ran to Awilley to complain about the fact that I happen to edit an article that you edited before, stating that I never previous edited that article. First - you edit almost every post-1932 US politics article. Of course if I edit anything in this topic area it will probably be something you edited before. Second - just because you edited an article previously does not mean that you own the article and no one else can ever again edit that article. Third - it was my understanding that any editor can edit any article he or she chooses. Fourth - at the risk of being accused of a personal attack, I have to ask if you are you really so much of a snowflake that you cannot discuss edits on the Talk page, as requested repeatedly, but need to run to an Admin every time one of your edits is challenged? I am sure Awilley has more important things to do than to deal with this issue which could have simply been discussed and resolved on the article Talk page. Finally - what topic ban are you talking about? Are you trying to get me banned again? GlassBones (talk) 13:35, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Violation of GlassBones topic ban [ edit ]

Hi Awilley. You topic banned[12] GlassBones yesterday. They violated it by making this edit 12+ hours later. - MrX 🖋 13:07, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

MrX - I am not aware of any topic ban from yesterday. The last thing at the bottom of my user Talk page was about an edit to the article on Ray Brown, a Hall of Fame pitcher who played for the Homestead Grays in the Negro Leagues. GlassBones (talk) 13:45, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
@GlassBones: please see this diff [13] ~Awilley (talk) 16:30, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
Awilley - I see it's a one-year topic ban. So on your sole discretion as an administrator, my alleged violation of the nebulous and highly subjective standard of Battleground has been penalized with a one-year ban. Arguably, given this standard your buddy Snoog should be banned for life. In any event - this one-year ban is arbitrary, capricious, and ridiculous. Please let me know how to appeal. Thanks. GlassBones (talk) 16:50, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
GlassBones, there is absolutely nothing wrong with Awilley topic-banning you for a year on his sole admin discretion. That's how discretionary sanctions work (the term comes from the word discretion). On the other hand, Awilley, you put the notice about it into an existing section some ways up GlassBones' talkpage, not in a more visible separate section at the bottom. It sounds like he didn't notice it, and that's not altogether surprising IMO. Therefore, I definitely wouldn't sanction him for the violation MrX mentions. But, GlassBones, now you know you have been topic banned from post-1932 American politics, I hope. You can appeal the ban using the process described here. Bishonen | tålk 17:07, 4 March 2020 (UTC).

Bishonen - Thanks. But before I start this process, is there any real chance of having the ban significantly reduced or eliminated? I don't want to waste my time and everyone else's time in appealing if I have no reasonable chance to prevail. Is there any place to look at previous decisions to see what chance I might have? GlassBones (talk) 17:16, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

IMO there's no chance at all if you appeal immediately, GlassBones. This is from my experience of these things. The people assessing your appeal (whether they're the community at WP:AN, or admins at WP:AE) will be looking for good editing in other areas during the topic ban. I'd wait six months if it was me. Bishonen | tålk 17:22, 4 March 2020 (UTC).
Bishonen - So even under the best of circumstances this is a de facto topic ban for at least six months. So much for due process. GlassBones (talk) 17:37, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
@GlassBones: You can find the appeal process by looking at the ban template on your talk page and following the link at the end of the sentence, "You may appeal this sanction using the process described here." I can't tell you whether or not to appeal, but you have a couple of options. You can appeal to me directly or to the larger community. If you appeal to me I expect you to demonstrate an understanding of what the problem is and have a specific plan for how you're going to avoid the problem in the future. If you appeal to the community, one of three things will probably happen. The sanction will be reversed, the sanction will be confirmed, or in some cases the sanction's severity could increase. If #2 or #3 happen then that takes away my power to reverse the sanction on my own, so any future appeals will need to be to the community. I can't predict what the community will do.
@Bishonen: My bad for not making a new template at the bottom of the page. I would never have blocked for the initial ban violation when they didn't yet know the ban existed. ~Awilley (talk) 22:16, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

This is yet another clear topic-ban violation.[14] The edit is also a continuation of an edit-war on a page he stalked me to. 21:56, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Snooganssnoogans - You really think this was somehow a violation that warranted a notification to Admin Awilley? How could you construe my edit of this article as this a topic ban violation? This article is about illegal immigration and crime - not about post-1932 US politics. Further, the language I edited into the article had nothing at all to do with politics - it was a cite to the law stating that entering and/or remaining in the US illegally is a crime. There was no topic ban violation. What next- are you going to claim that my edit to a list of villages in Allen County, Ohio was also a violation of the topic ban because Allen County, Ohio happens to be in the US, and people there have voted in presidential elections since 1932? GlassBones (talk) 22:54, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
GlassBones That is in fact a topic ban violation. Illegal immigration in the US clearly falls under the umbrella of politics. You don't need to take my word for it. Just look at the templates at the top of that article's talk page. Anything under Wikipedia:WikiProject Politics/American politics is out of bounds, and editing content about those subjects in unrelated articles is too. Here's an example: 2020_coronavirus_outbreak_in_the_United_States is off limits, and the section titled "United States" at 2019–20_coronavirus_outbreak#United_States is too. If you're not sure if something is a violation, ask somebody before you edit. ~Awilley (talk) 23:11, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
Awilley - Thanks. I guess I just have a difficult time understanding what exactly are the standards for editing Wikipedia. I mean - I have been harshly sanctioned for a Battlegound mentality, while at the same time Snooganssnoogans does exactly what I was (unjustly) sanctioned for, and not only gets away with it but other editors congratulate him for it, since they have the same biased point of view. I mean - just look at Snoog's User page. He or she delights in having a battleground mentality. Further, this editor constantly undoes other editors' edits with insulting statements like "nonsense", "fringe" or "faux controversy", on those occasions when he or she doesn't simply hit Undo without any explanation whatsoever. On February 14, 2020, on my Talk page, you stated that "when you stop engaging with reasonable arguments and just revert without any edit summaries that's edit warring." That is exactly what Snoog does and has routinely done for years, without consequence. And when others challenge his or her edits, Snoog accuses them of edit warring and not following BRD, when this editor doesn't follow BRD. Yet, no matter what, Snoog does not get a one-year topic ban - just voluntary sanctions. There is no editor I am aware of who has more of a battleground mentality, or engages in more harassment and bullying of fellow editors, than Snoog. This double standard is hard to understand, GlassBones (talk) 11:32, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
Snoog, is adding diffs to your user page as you did here really necessary. It brings your user page watchers and could constitute as canvassing especially when you add RfCs etc.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 22:31, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
Just a suggestion...if people have problems with it maybe a user subpage/sandbox could serve the same purpose? ~Awilley (talk) 22:35, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
It's to remind myself. I do not want more documents, reminders and bookmarks on my computer than I have to, so the userpage is the best place for it. I probably have more editors watchlisting my page who have problems with my edits than vice versa, so if I were to list active RfCs (which I'm not sure I do a lot of), it would probably attract a type of editor who holds a different POV. Canvassing is, as far as I can tell, related to drawing people to a page who are likely to edit / vote my way. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 23:44, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

This[15] is a clear-cut violation of this editor's topic ban, and is yet another instance where the editor stalks me to a page he hasn't edited in order to revert me. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 20:37, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – April 2020 [ edit ]

News and updates for administrators from the past month (March 2020).

Guideline and policy news

  • There is an ongoing request for comment to streamline the source deprecation and blacklisting process.

Technical news



  • The WMF has begun a pilot report of the pages most visited through various social media platforms to help with anti-vandalism and anti-disinformation efforts. The report is updated daily and will be available through the end of May.

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 07:00, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

User:Patapsco913 & User:Patapsco913 (2) [ edit ]

Hi Awilley, can you please take a look at the discussion I placed (User:Patapsco913 ) and the follow up (User:Patapsco913 2) at ANI for me? The flow and closing of the discussion wasn't satisfactory. My concern is about canvassing (which has been denied), possible meatpuppetry (don't have evidence so can't judge) and BLP violations (especially the Silverman's piece)? Thank you. (talk) 21:26, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

For someone who was complaining about canvassing, what would you call your pings at your last ANI? And now you are FORUMSHOPPING. I suggest you drop it before someone looks into your edits and AFD and CSD behavior. Let's remember, you AFD/CSD Maurice Kremer, one of the pioneers of Los Angeles with a google search for Maurice Kremer, the Senator from Nebraska. You might want to explain how your nominations aren't disruptive. Sir Joseph (talk) 00:33, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Statement used for POV-pushing [ edit ]

A closing statement that you added to a RfC 4 years ago(!) is being referenced by people on Wikipedia insisting that skepticism and denial are not the same thing when it comes to climate change skepticism and climate change denial. Don't know if you are aware this is happening, but thought I should do you the favor of letting you know: Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Skeptics_versus_deniers jps (talk) 01:35, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Hmm. I've added a suggestion there. ~Awilley (talk) 04:06, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
  • I'm trying really hard to be nice so I am going to walk away from there. At this rate I am surprised they are not topic banned. PackMecEng (talk) 17:15, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Clarification on close of NPOVN discussion on location-based virus names [ edit ]

Hello! Hope you're well. Thanks for closing the discussion on location-based virus names at NPOVN! I have a question about this part: the China virus and Wuhan virus disambig page and redirect should target this article. How does that work with the closing of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chinese virus? Specifically, The articles on the current disease and the virus do not use the all, so would make poor redirect targets. "China virus" redirects to Chinese virus. Thanks again, Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 00:47, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, that was a mistake on my part. I had meant to write Chinese virus (the disambig page) not China virus (the redirect). So basically a restatement of the status quo. I don't think the close should be incompatible or override that AfD discussion. So Wuhan virus is a redirect, Chinese virus is a disambig page, and China virus is a redirect to the most logical place (probably to Chinese virus, but that's not part of my close). ~Awilley (talk) 03:04, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Clarification on NPOVN discussion [ edit ]

Hi there. It seems that the "Summary of consensus" posted by one of the users in favor of removal, was quite misleading. I'm wondering did this factor in at all? It indicated 12 for removal 3 against removal, but looking over the discussion I'm not sure how the poster came to that conclusion. It appears to be either 10-7 or 9-7, or around that mark. Thanks in advance. Symphony Regalia (talk) 02:03, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

To be honest I didn't actually count votes at all, I was reading the discussion and evaluating the arguments themselves. I didn't make any decisions on the basis of the summary you mentioned. I make a point of not giving weight to vote counting summaries done by involved individuals. ~Awilley (talk) 02:16, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification. Symphony Regalia (talk) 19:29, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – May 2020 [ edit ]

News and updates for administrators from the past month (April 2020).

Administrator changes


CheckUser changes

readded Callanecc

Oversight changes

readded HJ Mitchell

Guideline and policy news

Technical news


  • A request for comment closed with consensus to create a Village Pump-style page for communication with the Wikimedia Foundation.

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 01:19, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Request [ edit ]

Will you please lift the Jully 2019 t-ban? It serves no purpose, acts more like an obstacle that inhibits discussion, feels like an invisible trip line when I'm engaging in the consensus-building process, and stifles the exchange of free thoughts and ideas. The purpose of any t-ban is to stop disruption, and while we differ as to what caused the disruption at those 2 articles and how you treated my use of WP:GASLIGHTING, I cannot deny that there was disruption; I sought your help because of it. What I've learned from your t-ban is to not seek your help when I'm being bullied, and to do my best to avoid disruption rather than try to resolve it. I have gotten much better at ignoring PAs, stonewalling, gaslighting, baited questions, and outright took me a while, but once I got over the hump and recalled a childhood chant about sticks and stones, life on WP became a lot more pleasant - so, ironically, I thank you for the reminder. In preparing this request, I discovered that the 2 editors who caused me to seek your help initially appear to have voluntarily stopped editing that article a few months after you t-banned me - one of whom apologized to me, and the other whose BLP vio you redacted a few days later has not edited WP since January - so the potential of future interaction is slim to none. Also, there appears to be an abatement of certain political movements in the US that caused such a stir in 2019, and as a result, no longer poses a threat to the continuing peace and productive collaboration those 2 articles have enjoyed since my t-ban, which further supports my request. Atsme Talk 📧 13:25, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Atsme, sorry for the slow response. Three things:
1. Just a minor point, but I'd appreciate it if you would stop misrepresenting what led to the topic ban. It was not your use of WP:GASLIGHTING. This has already been litigated at ARCA where I pointed out that your first use of "WP:GASLIGHTING" was 3 days after the topic ban had been placed. You don't need to take my word for it. See the comment in the Arb section by Premedicated Chaos: Atsme, the topic ban rationale clearly cites five separate diffs where you literally state that various editors are gaslighting you. Awilley didn't T-ban you for linking to a behavioral guideline via internal shortcut. For one thing, in those diffs, you didn't - every instance of the word "gaslighting" in those diffs is lowercase and unlinked, and WP:GASLIGHTING isn't so common a shortcut that it would be obvious you meant the internal shortcut rather than the common word. You were T-banned for backsliding into the same behavior that got you T-banned from AP2 as a whole. The "gaslighting" diffs are examples of that kind of unproductive behavior, but the rest of the rationale clearly describes that the T-ban is based on your behavior as a whole.
2. I took some time to look at your talkpage edits over the past month going back through about April. From what I can see you only edited 3 talk pages in the AP topic area during that time: Talk:Joe Biden (38 edits), Talk:Joe Biden sexual assault allegation (15 edits), and Talk:Federal Commission on School Safety (4 edits). And from a quick scan of those edits it appears that all of your posts on Talk:Joe Biden were related to the sexual assault allegation except for one vote to spin off a section and two posts opposing mention of Sanders endorsing Biden. Scanning those edits I can't see where an ANTIFA topic ban could have hampered you. Nor do I see evidence of the type of constructive collaboration and compromise that should be taking place on talk pages. Don't get me wrong, it's a battleground and I'm not saying your behavior was the worst (it wasn't), but you were as intransigent as anybody else. For example: your interactions with MelbourneStar ("You are entitled to believe whatever suits you. I'm done here so stop pinging me." ) Aircorn ("It's time for you to WP:DROPTHESTICK, Aircorn. You made my reassessment controversial when it should not have been and it was based on your fallacious allegations of it being political." or "I will not indulge further in this unwarranted trial because it appears too much like wikilawyering."), MelanieN (taking her to WP:AN without making any attempt to resolve the issue with her first, and then not even notifying her about the thread), and your posts under the header "If it looks like stonewalling".
3 This probably won't make you feel any better, but the topic ban was 100% unrelated to your request for help. I honestly didn't even realize that some of the offending diffs were on the same page. With your request for help, I opened the diff, saw that someone else had already restored the thing that you had asked me to restore, checked for any further edit warring, and then replied to you. If you had said you thought someone was bullying you I would have looked deeper. Your topic ban was in response to a request for help from a different editor who emailed the complaint to me because I was the one who had closed the appeal with the warning about "backsliding".
So the response is no for now. You made similar promises in your first appeal, so this time I want to actually see evidence that you're out of the battleground rut. ~Awilley (talk) 17:54, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
Thank you, Awilley - your response is why I have made it my mission to draw attention to the problems you and a few other admins have created with DS and AE, specifically unilateral actions, and the POV creep associated with sole discretion. Your response solidifies my position, and I will use it in my arguments until the community is aware of why this is an extremely important issue to the future of the project as it relates to maintaining NPOV, and the ability for editors to engage in discussions where the exchange of free thought and ideas is paramount. Happy editing. Atsme Talk 📧 18:34, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
Atsme, check out the talk page of SPECIFICO and BradV for the egregious example of POV and how POV creep works. Sir Joseph(talk) 19:24, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

::"Your topic ban was in response to a request for help from a different editor who emailed the complaint to me because I was the one who had closed the appeal with the warning about "backsliding"" nice to know who this person was.--MONGO (talk) 19:19, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Awilley, , Since you told Atsme that "I can't see see where an ANTIFA topic ban could have hampered you." what is the purpose of continuing the ban? DGG ( talk ) 00:28, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
To prevent disruption in the ANTIFA topic area and encourage Atsme to rethink her approach generally. I think she is a very well-intentioned person who could be a big asset to the topic area if she would set aside some of the WP:RGW missions she seems to pursue. The topic area is saturated with POV wiki-knights who are 100% confident that they're in the right, but there's a shortage of editors who have building a quality encyclopedia as their primary mission and who are able to set aside their own views, try to see things from multiple perspectives, research high quality sources, and write good articles. And since you're here, let me say that while I think it's nice to have wiki friends who turn out to support each other, I don't think you'd be doing her any favors in the long run if you let her believe she had an arb in her corner. ~Awilley (talk) 03:09, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
I do not think you realize how arb com works. No individual arb every makes decisions (this is different from ANI or ArbE, where any individual admin who claims that they are uninvolved can make a binding decision) We go by votes, and there are 15 of us. Every one of us there thinks of themselves as very much independent, and uses their own judgements. If someone were my best friend, at arb com I could not help them if there were a valid case against them; if they were my inveterate enemy I could not myself harm them unless the majority of other arbs agreed with me also. This is completely different from the idiosyncratic and bias prone procedure of AE and ANI (I'm not claiming that voting always reaches the right decision, any more than that AnI always makes the wrong one, but just that it reaches an open majority decision by visible processes.)
Nor do I see that my being an arb is relevant to what I said just above--I didn't even say it as an admin, but as an ordinary editor making a comment . Atsme is a realist, and knows that I have sometimes supported her and sometimes not. if she proposes anything unconstructive, I will certainly oppose her, and some of what in the past she has proposed does fall in that category. And I think you'll find there's nobody on WP whom I have always or even consistently supported or opposed. DGG ( talk ) 05:59, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
@DGG, sorry, I wasn't referring to ArbCom, but more along the lines of what you addressed in the first sentence of your second paragraph. Here's an example I saw recently: you made a cautious comment presumably also as an ordinary editor but it was interpreted as clear support from an Arb. ~Awilley (talk) 15:27, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Awilley, I disagree with everything you've said about me and with reference to me, and that's all I'm going to say here. You are far too WP:INVOLVED and wearing your prejudice on your sleeve. It will all come out in the wash. Atsme Talk 📧 21:47, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Tag reverted [ edit ]

This revert of the tag by Volunteer Marek is one of a few valid reasons why the Joe Biden article will not pass GA. He called the tag spurious when it is far from it. RS can certainly see the issues. The Hill, The Atlantic, Fox News, BBC and on and on. The tag belongs where I had it but I'm not going to revert the removal of it. Atsme Talk 📧 18:31, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Your tag was spurious and your insertion of it into the article can be seen as a disruptive attempt to sabotage the GA process. You have been repeatedly warned about your behavior in American Politics articles and, IIRC, came very close to being completely banned from it. Volunteer Marek 18:35, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
You also failed to substantiate or explain the tag on tag. Just for the record. Volunteer Marek 18:35, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Those tags had no business on the article. There are droves of editors discussing the article on the talk page. Those claiming that the article needs more opinions or is not NPOV are in the minority, in spite of their persistent efforts to describe Biden as raping racist. I agree 100% with what VM wrote immediately above. Atsme, you really should back away from the horse. - MrX 🖋 18:48, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Appears the talkpage has multiple ongoing issues about coverage that indicate it does have NPOV concerns.--MONGO (talk) 19:08, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Alas there always will be no matter how well the article is written. We may as well tag every political article. Or not. O3000 (talk) 19:19, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Maybe all where a substantive number of editors have voiced legitimate concerns. Especially when those concerns are covered by MSM and RSs yet we choose to ignore them cause we fear they may make the subject look naughty.--MONGO (talk) 19:26, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Really think that for these articles where The Usual Suspects (myself included) are always barking away at each other that Rfc's are the way to go when an impasse is ongoing or the issue keeps cropping up. I also wonder what the articles would look like if about 2 dozen of these usual suspects all walked away from editing these article until 11/5/2020 and we all agreed to do only vandalism patrol.--MONGO (talk) 19:58, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
What makes you think an election will stop this? Assuming we have an election. O3000 (talk) 20:04, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Fair enough.--MONGO (talk) 20:48, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
As was your comment. O3000 (talk) 20:51, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
I know I'm like over a month late to the party here, but MONGO, your idea here is the only way to fix AP2. Sign me up. Levivich[dubiousdiscuss] 00:54, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
Atsme, when you add a maintenance tag to the top of a high traffic article you need to be prepared to elaborate on the specific concerns you have. Right now I'm hearing "The article is biased because the mainstream media and Democrats have a double standard on #METOO". That's not specific enough. "This article is biased because it should give as much weight to sexual assault allegations as the Brett Kavanaugh article gives to sexual assault allegations." That's a bit better, but still not very specific or actionable, and it's kind of a weak WP:OTHERSTUFF argument because it's easy to think of counter-examples. (For example, compare the size of Joe_Biden#Allegations_of_inappropriate_physical_contact to Donald_Trump#Allegations_of_sexual_misconduct.) A better example of specific actionable concerns would be: "This article is biased because it gives too little weight to the Tara Reade allegations. There needs to be at least another paragraph of that in the body, and it needs to be mentioned in the Lead. And the section header needs to be changed to 'Allegations of inappropriate physical contact and sexual assault.'" (I'm not saying this is your argument or even that it's a good argument, just that it's an example of specific concerns.) Anyway I'm not equipped to make a detailed comparison between Biden and Kavanaugh. But if correcting the injustice is something you wish to pursue, I have a feeling that you might make more headway trying to trim down Brett_Kavanaugh#Sexual_assault_allegations which strikes me as being too detailed. Top-level biographies rarely require a blow-by-blow tweet-by-tweet recounting of events. And it's usually easier and safer to work on the side of WP:BLP. ~Awilley (talk) 21:58, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Awilley - I did not fall off a pumpkin truck yesterday. I do wish you would not focus on me which you always do (it is blatant prejudice in that you automatically assume everything is my fault). You need to focus on what VM just did - he removed a valid tag with no explanation. Why are you not asking him the questions you're asking me? I provided support of my position, and it comes from RS. What has VM provided beyond aspersions? He can just say whatever he wants to say but I have to provide more evidence?? If we are supposed to be using MSM to cite what we include for DUE, NPOV, BALANCE, etc., then why are you excluding what MSM says in favor of VM's aspersions against me? Read this article which specifically mentions WP if you don't trust my perception of the situation - which is pretty obvious that you don't. Try focusing on the evidence I've provided without letting your prejudice against me trip you up - IOW, approach it from a NPOV. If you are going to let the past taint your approach, then you need to look at VM's past because it dwarfs mine. We are 2 entirely different editors, and you are siding with VM while denigrating me for not accommodating YOUR POV. It is not going to happen, Awilley. I follow PAGs to the "T" - and if that is what you are faulting me over, then so be it - let it be known now. I have logged this discussion in preparation for an AP3, not to mention what the WMF is in the process of enacting because of the behavior we just witnessed with VM...and I welcome it wholeheartedly. Atsme Talk 📧 23:28, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
I'm really getting tired of editors tagging entire articles because they can't gain consensus. O3000 (talk) 00:46, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
It would never occur to me to bring something like this to an admin's UTP. Theoretically they have the power to issue a sanction at a DS article, but I've never seen that happen over a tag disagreement, which is little different from any content dispute. In my experience it's always been AE or bust. Even if I took it to an admin, it wouldn't be an admin that I believe is "prejudiced" against me; that honestly doesn't make a lot of sense. ―Mandruss  01:09, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
Atsme, I like pumpkins, and I neither asked you questions nor condoned Volunteer Marek's "spurious" comment. I responded to your original post only, after having read all 4, (now 5) articles you linked here, and looked at the diffs and recent talk page posts. Then I gave you a bit of advice on how to avoid the problem in the future, using examples I thought you might find relevant based on what you linked here and said on the talk page. I suppose I could have just quoted "WP:PAGs" at you like "Tags must either be accompanied by a comment on the article's talk page explaining the problem and beginning a discussion on how to fix it or, for simpler and more obvious problems, a remark using the reason parameter" but I took the time to put it into my own words. I'm sorry you didn't find my response as helpful as I meant it to be. ~Awilley (talk) 22:38, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Article name - George Floyd [ edit ]

Thank you Awilley - for bringing up the appropriate WIKI rules in relation to article names. WIKI must always be neutral or it looses its encyclopedic purpose. I fear a people's court, without appropriate reflection and based on biased votes. It may be "democratic" but it doesn't make it correct or truthful. --Lechatmarbre (talk) 14:56, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – June 2020 [ edit ]

News and updates for administrators from the past month (May 2020).

Administrator changes

removedAnna FrodesiakBuckshot06RonhjonesSQL

CheckUser changes

removed SQL

Guideline and policy news


  • A motion was passed to enact a 500/30 restriction on articles related to the history of Jews and antisemitism in Poland during World War II (1933–45), including the Holocaust in Poland. Article talk pages where disruption occurs may also be managed with the stated restriction.

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:27, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Don't leave me hangin' [ edit ]

Hi Awilley. You asked me for a suggestion and I offered one. Are we going to continue this discussion? I would genuinely like to help craft a solution that prevents harm to our articles without crippling the ability of good faith editors to improve them. As an aside, I also tried to direct your attention to a editor who popped in to the article, adding unverifiable material, adding a BLP violation, re-adding the unverifiable material after it was rightfully reverted (violating your conspicuous editing restrictions), and then adding a comment to a template resulting in a Lua error. - MrX 🖋 21:39, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

@MrX:, Sorry, I haven't forgotten, and I was fully intending within the next couple of hours to ping you to a separate discussion where I'm discussing the first issue. I will do that now, and then try to follow up on the other thing. ~Awilley (talk) 21:43, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
OK, on ChiCubsFan, I can see it's an example of the problems you're talking about with SPAs gaming the system. I can also see Bishonen has given a final warning of sorts, and they haven't edited since then. Is there something specific you'd like me to do? The account doesn't look like the typical SPA sock, having been around for a year. ~Awilley (talk) 22:47, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
Since you asked, I would like admins who place editing restrictions on articles to enforce those editing restrictions. I mean, a boy can dream can't he?- MrX 🖋 23:33, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Please explain...please [ edit ]

Hi. I am genuinely confused. I have twice removed the same non-neutral language but 7 days apart. How does that violate the 24 hour rule? Birtig (talk) 19:09, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Forget it - I think I understand - I am supposed to discuss the issue on talk first. Kind of means the non neutral languages gets to remain as long as second editor re-inserts it. Ok I will revert
Birtig, you have voiced a lot of frustration on the article talk page concerning that article. I think you are misunderstanding what NPOV means on Wikipedia. We only reflect the weight of what reliable sources say, and this may not seem balanced to you in the ordinary sense of the word. But the article has been written and watched by dozens of experienced editors Although it can always stand improvement it is not off the rails as you seem to suggest in many of your talk page comments. SPECIFICOtalk 23:12, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

AE [ edit ]

Sorry for disturbing, the AE case is closed. I just wanted to answer that there was no a 1RR template, but the editor was under 1RR restriction.--WEBDuB (talk) 17:42, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Ah, got it. Thanks ~Awilley (talk) 17:55, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – July 2020 [ edit ]

News and updates for administrators from the past month (June 2020).

Guideline and policy news

Technical news


Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 10:25, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Markbassett [ edit ]

Hi Awilley. Would you mind looking at a few of the recent comments from Markbassett on talk:Donald Trump#COVID-19 in the lead? (take 69) and tell me if you think they are beneficial toward resolving the content disputes? Here's one example:

"Oppose all - factually short when it’s saying as if always against when factually he did change; and as if everything slow when some items were fast, and perhaps more importantly some responses have been yuuuuge! Also just not looking to be good summary of article per LEAD, but instead showing wow I could google 10 sites that say X as if that’s impressive."

Perhaps it's just me, but I find almost all of his comments virtually incomprehensible, evasive, and highly disruptive. There is also a lot goalpost moving. For example claiming that something is false, and then when presented with numerous sources verifying the facts, he claims that the sources were cherry picked. I believe you had brought up something similar about the volume and quality of his talk page communication in the past, which is why I'm asking. I'm not requesting that you take any administrative action. I'm really just looking for a second opinion. I may very well be losing my mind. Thank you. - MrX 🖋 01:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

It's not just you. I never have any trouble understanding where he stands on an issue. That's usually pretty clear. But he sometimes seems to use some kind of slang that I can't wrap my mind around. And his appeals to WP policy are often completely bogus. I'm not sure what to do about it. It's not disruptive in the normal way like edit warring, but disruptive in that it makes people's heads explode when they try to engage in logical discussion with him. Maybe kind of a WP:competence issue but not obviously so unless you spend a lot of time dredging through talk pages. ~Awilley (talk) 14:20, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
Thank you Awilley. I appreciate your perspective. I'm not sure what to do about it either, other than stay away from Wikipedia. - MrX 🖋 15:42, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
Awilley, just to repeat my usual comment on AP2 disruption: It's not classic edit warring that is most disruptive. It's pointless extended talk page threads, arguments from nonsense, arguments against or without policy, arguments without references to sources, and the like. Human nature being what it is, many editors cannot resist respeonding to the most vacuous or repetitive messages with new replies that prolong and compouund the threads. It's WP:TE deluxe. Sort of like white-collar crime is not like a stabbing but it's still a problem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SPECIFICO (talkcontribs)
I have warned Markbassett against making people's heads explode. Bishonen | tålk 16:18, 14 July 2020 (UTC).
Interesting - have any of his comments been hatted recently like what MelanieN did here? Disruptive comments are hatted, and then we run to Awilley with innocuous comments and try to make them appear disruptive because we don't agree with what is being said, and then sit back and wait for Bish to issue a warning? This is a very disturbing pattern. Aren't all editors entitled to express their views in a debate, including Markbassett? Why not simply ask him to clarify whatever it is you're not understanding? Sorry, but I'm not seeing any heads explode except for a few who oppose Markbassett's views. Atsme Talk 📧 16:30, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
I'm so glad that we have the benefit of your superior wisdom to point out the things that really matter like Bishonen's disturbing pattern of warnings(!). Do you ever read your comments the next day and regret having been so transparently obnoxious? - MrX 🖋 19:22, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
User:Bishonen Thanks for the ping here, but that talk post only read as a rather meaningless threat that was self-contradictory said about my !vote by a link said "here". A strong opposition to my !vote wouldn't result from a 'not understandable', a 'not understandable' would lead to no response or getting some question back. And a vague statement to not post things that make peoples heads explode -- well I would suggest they need less explosive thinking because how do *I* or anyone else know where their heads have detonators ??? Cheers Markbassett (talk) 19:04, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
I'm done on this issue, Markbassett. For you to choose to remove my post from your page and then respond to it here, on Awilley's page, is too strange for me, and I frankly find it objectionable. I do not wish to continue any conversation with you. Bishonen | tålk 20:59, 14 July 2020 (UTC).
In all fairness, your threat to block followed by "Please do not edit under the influence, whether of cabin fever, lack of sleep, or some substance." is certainly worthy of removal. can do better than that.--MONGO (talk) 00:11, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
User:Bishonen - I kept other bits I thought useful or interesting, and just removed yours per WP:TALKO cleanup of my personal talk space since I was not inclined to report it as a WP:PERSONALATTACK. The note in this talk to admin was because you who mentioned it as "I have warned" - so in response I also noted the reception and "don't make heads explode" was unusable for any guidance purposes plus seemed contradictory with there being responses. (Unclear would get either no response or questions.) Cheers Markbassett (talk) 14:48, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Me thinks all can be solved if we remember we are all human beings and one should be able to come to you directly and work things out amicably.--MONGO (talk) 20:49, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Whatever the reason behind Markbassett's exhaustingly incoherent comments, there can be little doubt that they are disruptive to the collaborative process. Competence is required to participate in this project. - MrX 🖋 17:21, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
    I have no difficulty understanding them. I'd like to think that the 3rd grade level education I got properly prepared me for Wikipedia. Isn't there another editor that was sanctioned for questioning others competence once too often? Would reduced or shorter talkpage contributions suffice to appease you?--MONGO (talk) 18:05, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
    I'm 100% with MrX as to Markbassett's communication issues and language-related CIR, although I wonder how disruptive he could be if we just ignored him. Since you MONGO have no difficulty understanding them, please be always on hand to translate for the rest of us. Then we can see how much Markbassett thinks your translations are accurate. ―Mandruss  18:12, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
    Just adding that I cannot think of a situation where I had issues understanding Markbassett. It is more concerning to me that you two have issues with it. But you are always welcome to ask me if you have issues in the future. I always enjoy the company of friends. PackMecEng (talk) 18:20, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Really? Please direct me to the Rosetta stone for "factually short when it’s saying as if always against when factually he did change" or "That you did an example (or above several) simply does nothing for DUE or OFFTOPIC or picking which particular hit for relevance and information instead of SENSATION or POV" or "The concern of negative negative complaint list or long runaround to just get to somehow a view being uninformative and seems a failure of ENC and CRITICISM which are only guidance essays and not policy." I don't want to have to seek out translations from suddenly-friendly PacMecEng or newfound-humanitarian MONGO in order to decipher Markbassett's creative grammar meanderings. I volunteer here because I've come to expect my peers to possess basic communication skills. It's not a lot to ask: Just make sense! - MrX 🖋 19:15, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
I am not sure...maybe English is not Mark's first language? I have been known for my Dr. Doolittle qualities (I can speak bear, wolverine, pika and a little bit of moose) but if I am now also a humanitarian I am most pleased. Have you read any Shakespeare? I mean, it comes across as sometimes unintelligible but if you know how to parse the wording its actually mostly comedic. I see a wee bit of Elizabethan English in Mark's wording, but do I understand what they are saying. You came here at first for what appeared to be a mental health check but seem more and more to be seeking some kind of injunction? Expectation is the root of all heartache.--MONGO (talk) 20:00, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Looks like Levivich got to it before I could. Also what is with this suddenly-friendly PacMecEng or newfound-humanitarian MONGO?! I thought we always got on fairly well. PackMecEng (talk) 03:34, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
  • This discussion seems to be going in a direction that would be more appropriate at AE or ANI or Arbcom. Also, while CIR is a problematic assertion and a difficult standard to enforce, Markbassett is far from the only editor about whom such concerns have surfaced on AP2 articles. SPECIFICOtalk 19:22, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
    Markbassett is far from the only editor Point being? Should we not voice such concerns unless the editor's issues are unique? Or, should we voice them against a group simultaneously? What an odd piece of illogic. In any case, I can't think of a single other editor who is both so vocal and so incomprehensible. Can you? "Word salad" applies, too often. ―Mandruss  19:31, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
    Are you offering a medical diagnosis of Markbassett here? I don't feel comfortable with that. However, I could see a batch processing of CIR issues and editors at some other venue. This is a workplace. AP is not a good use of volunteer time given the current level of CIR. SPECIFICOtalk 21:15, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
    No, I am not "offering a medical diagnosis". Don't overinterpret a wikilink. "Batch processing" is completely unworkable in any venue if there is any expectation of actual change. But I can see that this is not going anywhere given the evidence-free accusations of ulterior motives, etc. I'll just continue to ignore Markbassett's word salads whenever I can. They don't consume much in the way of server resources. ―Mandruss  21:40, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
    "Interpret"?? Are you T.S.Eliot? Ezra Pound? I thought that around here we just expressed clear expository thoughts -- kind of like what MrX pointed out at the start. SPECIFICOtalk 00:43, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Mark said that all the proposals were inaccurate ("factually short") because they suggested that Trump's opposition was constant ("as if always against") when, in fact, his position changed ("when factually he did change"), and because they suggest that he was always slow to respond ("as if everything slow") when in fact he responded quickly in some cases ("when some items were fast"), and, more importantly, some of his responses were impactful ("some resposnes have been yuuuuuge"). Further, none of the proposals were good summaries of the article body as required by WP:LEAD ("not looking to be good summary of article per LEAD"), but instead were based on cherrypicked sources ("instead showing wow I could google 10 sites that say X as if that’s impressive."). I don't agree with everything mark wrote, but I had no problem understanding it, although a bit more punctuation would have helped. Levivich[dubiousdiscuss] 00:00, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Seven Years of Adminship [ edit ]

Wishing Awilley a very happy adminship anniversary on behalf of the Wikipedia Birthday Committee! Chris Troutman (talk) 17:14, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Happy Adminship Anniversary! [ edit ]

Administrators' newsletter – August 2020 [ edit ]

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Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 08:20, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

So I may avoid any problems [ edit ]

Please would you advise me how I am close to a topic ban? Thank you. soibangla (talk) 21:39, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

It was just a followup reminder [16] [17] to focus on content, not contributors. ~Awilley (talk) 22:03, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
Is that the basis for a topic ban or, say, a 48-hour block? soibangla (talk) 22:07, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
Suggestion: Don't post to a recently sanctioned editor's TP unless you are seriously trying to politely help the editor. Even then, think three times. Most folk don't take sanctions well -- at least in the immediate aftermath. Let them blow off steam. O3000 (talk) 00:24, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
I was unaware of his sanction, not in the habit of following such proceedings. I figured that if someone was on an AP2 Talk page that meant they are allowed on AP2 articles as well. soibangla (talk) 00:35, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Hope this works for you [ edit ]

Under the hat. Does that work? Atsme Talk 📧 02:16, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

👍 ~Awilley (talk) 06:22, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Talk:Ayurveda [ edit ]

I restored the warnings at Talk:Ayurveda given the extremely problematic behavior we've had there recently. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 18:46, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Hipal, these aren't just warnings, they are discretionary sanctions which have to be applied by an administrator. As the administrator who originally applied sanctions on that article has retired, Awilley has taken over responsibility for the article and applied the sanctions as he sees fit. This is according to the current DS policy, and doesn't get changed simply by reverting him. – bradv🍁 19:49, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification. I think they should remain and be enforced as best we can, given the behavior there.
Where's the proper venue for discussing this? --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 20:09, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
Hipal, the best venue at this point is simply to ask Awilley to reconsider, as you have already done. – bradv🍁 20:18, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
Hi Hipal, thank you for reverting the revert. I don't know how recently you began editing that page, but if you don't mind I'd like to give a bit of history. The Ayurveda article has been under sanctions for nearly 6 years. Back in 2014, User:John placed a WP:0RR editing restriction on the page. You read that right. Zero reverts. Predictably that had a destabilizing effect on the article, since WP:BOLD edits couldn't be reverted. After complaints at AN/I, the article was taken to the other extreme with a restriction stating that "You must get consensus on the Talk page for any change to the article that might be controversial BEFORE making the change to the article." That basically made the article uneditable by outlawing BOLD editing altogether and guaranteed a quagmire on the talk page. In 2018, I think, after more complaints, that sanction was lightened slightly to the "Consensus required" which disallowed any reverts of material that had previously been reverted. So technically that allowed BOLD edits as long as the BOLD edits weren't too similar to something that had previously been reverted in the article.
One thing I do when considering edit restrictions is to look at how hard they make it to change the status quo at an article. If we take normal editing with no sanctions as our baseline, the 0RR sanction basically blew up the status quo, making it impossible to restore. The "consensus first" sanction made it nearly impossible to change the status quo, as you can see how much work it takes to achieve a "consensus" on that talk page. The "consensus required" improved things slightly, but it still allowed a single editor to force an extended talkpage discussion for any edit they might disagree with. It also tends to drive away less-invested editors who don't want to deal with complex sanctions and who get worn out by talkpage stonewalling, leaving just the people who care the most about Ayurveda.
Anyway, at a certain point one might look at the article and begin to wonder if the sanctions are having a positive effect at all. That is what I did today. I think it might be time to give the article a chance at normal baseline editing. The 1RR sanction, still in place, will still put a damper on egregious edit wars, and the extended-confirmed protection will still prevent sockpuppets and SPAs from disrupting the article. This is something that has not been tried yet at this article.
Does this make sense? ~Awilley (talk) 21:22, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
I've been trying to help with the article for over six years.
I'm very glad you're so aware of the problems. I agree that the editing restrictions are, and have been, problematic in the long term. I don't think BOLD edits are helpful at this time, though they need to be allowed at some point in the future.
I'm equally concerned with the civility. There's been a lot of snark from both sides, and worse from the COI editors, well into clear BATTLE behavior. I don't want to see that escalating. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 21:49, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
It still rankles. It's why I watch this page. -Roxythe inedible dog . wooF 23:23, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – September 2020 [ edit ]

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Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 09:55, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Minor comment [ edit ]

I didn't want to add to the mass of stuff in the ARE discussion but I would like to disagree that the Dave Rubin article showed edit warring. I'm going to justify my POV here but also note that it makes no difference to the outcome of the ARE if we decide it was "just 3 articles" or 4. Of the 5 overall edits (two were sequential), two were rejecting changes (change, revert, end). Two were an IP editor making a change that was rejected by a RfC consensus. Basically I don't see Rubin was edit warring. That said, I do think the suggestion of few mandatory BRD settings could help on these articles (Andy Ngo, TPUSA already got one, Tucker Carlson etc). Springee (talk) 16:06, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Right, thank you. ~Awilley (talk) 16:35, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Tangentially related to above, have you ever considered a "Discuss First" limitation? This is a new idea in my head and not fully thought out but still, an idea. A DF rule/limitation would require new content be proposed on the talk page before being added to the article. If no one comments in 24hr it would be assumed to have consensus for inclusion. If objections then it would be treated like the D in BRD. Assume Tucker Carlson says something that upsets the twittershpere tomorrow. Rather than immediately adding text to the article, a talk discussion would propose the text. Text edits could be suggested or people could object. Either way we avoid the issue of text goes live then changes several times as each editor runs against the 3RR limit.

I think this could help in cases where say Mr A adds new content that is arguably DUE but the fails IMPARTIAL. In such a case Editor B often reverts rather than trying to fix a biased edit. A is incensed that their edit was quickly reverted so they restore or Mr C decides to restore feeling that inclusion is more important than dealing with the IMPARTIAL issues. But if A proposes the text on the talk page first, then there is no immediate delete. If B has an issue they can say so and A can change the wording before anyone gets reverted. Also, because no one feels incensed that they were just reverted I think people would be less emotionally invested in keeping content in/out vs discussing how it might best be presented.

This fits with my feeling that one of the best things we could do for the articles is force people to really follow BRD rather than just see who has more revert cards to play. Just a thought. Springee (talk) 17:35, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

((_*_) Buttinsky), forgive the intrusion but I think strict adherence to WP:RECENTISM is what we need to avoid/curtail disruption and make it policy. Atsme Talk 📧 17:40, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Springee, would "Discuss First" be the same as Consensus Required? I feel like BRD is just Consensus Required but with one bold edit permitted first.  I wonder if it would simplify things to have these limitations written as permutations of Consensus Required.  Even the edit warring policy could be written as "Once an edit war occurs WP:Consensus Required (v.2) should be followed. Kolya Butternut (talk) 14:36, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

JimKaatFan AP2 edits [ edit ]

Awilley, are edits related to BLM on the Tucker Carlson page considered part of AP2? After your request here [[18]] JimKaatFan has made edits to a Trump page [[19]] and Carlson's talk page here [[20]], [[21]] Springee (talk) 10:23, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

And again here [[22]] posted after the message above which pinged JimKaatFan. Springee (talk) 15:18, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
Yes. I will be applying a simple 1RR sanction. And to be clear, I would have done that regardless of whether or not you posted here. I lost patience with this user when they "archived" the thread on their talk page last night, after having made two AP2 edits [23] [24] a few days earlier. I would have let the edits slide as mistakes, but the "archive" edit indicates they have no intention to follow up, probably hoping I'd just forget. ~Awilley (talk) 16:54, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
Just in case you missed this [[25]] Springee (talk) 04:04, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Question [ edit ]

I recently noticed at AE that the "Show" button on hatted discussions does not uncollapse the discussion. Is it being done that way on purpose, or is it an error, or maybe it's an issue with my 3 browsers? Atsme Talk 📧 17:37, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

I don't know. I just tried it on my mobile browser (Firefox) and it worked fine for me. ~Awilley (talk) 05:44, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – September 2020 [ edit ]

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Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 10:42, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

DS Guidance at Julian Assange [ edit ]

At Julian Assange, SPECIFICO is claiming that the "Consensus required" restriction prevents restoration of long-standing material after it is removed. This seems to be the exact opposite to how the restriction is generally understood: removal of long-standing material is an "edit." If that edit is challenged, it cannot be restored (i.e., the material cannot be removed again) without consensus. At SPECIFICO's recent WP:AE case, this was the assumption that all the admins appeared to be operating under, with the only question being whether SPECIFICO's edit fell into the BLP exception. SPECIFICO is now threatening to go to WP:AE to enforce their own (to me, apparently opposite) interpretation of the "Consensus required" restriction. As an uninvolved admin, your guidance on this question at Julian Assange would be helpful. See this discussion section: [26]. -Thucydides411 (talk) 09:55, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

As I think Thuc is (or should be) aware, that is not what I and other editors are claiming. The material that was removed had no consensus. The fact that it is in the article for a long time, in the absence of talk page evidence of consensus or even the awareness of other editors, does not confer bullet-proof consensus. At most, it gives a slight presumption of seniority. But in this case, as I and others have gone to pains to establish on the current talk page, there is no consensus for the material Thuc wants to place in the lead. The talk page thread is here. Too bad that Thuc would take advantage of Awilley's tireless volunteer efforts and attention to continue his crusade for this bit of self-serving Assange propaganda that has not been confirmed by any evidence of the intention or action by any government. There is clearly not consensus for this text in the lead and after one failed trip to AE with this bit, I'm surprised Thuc would now be ignoring a civil warning to stand down. FYI, Awilley, he is now doing the same thing with other such content in this talk page section. SPECIFICOtalk 11:50, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
This material has been in the lede with the exact same wording since April 2019, and with slightly different wording for years before that. Julian Assange is a highly edited and watched article. The idea that this material just slipped through unnoticed is absurd. Again, my understanding is that removal of long-standing material requires consensus, and this appeared to be the understanding of all the admins at SPECIFICO's recent AE case. -Thucydides411 (talk) 12:42, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
Unlike @Upland Jack and JzG: and myself, Thuc pins us to the lowest rungs of Graham's triangle, repeating his POV ever more insistently. First off, in Thuc's failed AE complaint against me for removing his "Consensus Required" DS violation, the panel clearly did not see valid consensus for the longstanding unsourced and UNDUE lead text. Second, WP:CONSENSUS makes clear that there must be some evidence of consensus on the past article talk pages. Third, it is entirely clear from the current talk page that there is no current consensus for Thuc's representation of Assange's pretext. And fourth, Awilley is the Admin who has deprecated "consensus required" as a page sanction exactly to prevent the kind of GAMING that Thuc and his cohorts wish to sustain, in which a fringe or otherwise UNDUE text can be defended simply by a small minority of editors bludgeoning the community with unreasoned insistence. SPECIFICOtalk 14:56, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
This level of gaslighting is really unacceptable. You asserted the "pretext" claim is UNDUE. I (and other editors) cited numerous reliable sources that report the "pretext" claim, and explained how it has been central to Assange's response to the accusations in Sweden. You again asserted that it is UNDUE. I asked you several times to elaborate beyond your bare assertions. You just kept saying UNDUE and ONUS, without any explanation. Anyone can read the exchange on the talk page (Talk:Julian_Assange#Swedish_pretext) and judge for themselves - and I very much encourage others to do so. To any third party: just take a look through all of SPECIFICO's comments in that discussion thread, and ask yourself whether they ever make a single substantive addition to the discussion (beyond asserting UNDUE & ONUS). This gaslighting has to stop at some point. -Thucydides411 (talk) 15:21, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Comment [ edit ]

Awilley, I noticed that you commented here [27]. To be honest, based on my limited interactions with that editor I am reluctant to comment for fear of future retaliation. I would like to express a concern here. I don't think the diffs shown rise to the level of anything more than a verbal warning. However, I'm bothered by a number of aspects here. First, I would like to think that admins are the grownups in a sea of child editors. As such I would hope they act to a higher standard than most editors. Keeping yourself to a personal 1RR policy is an example of that higher standard. Many admins clearly think about policy and editorial consistency when debating inclusion/exclusion of content or neutrality etc. I've found very few admins who are unwilling to at least talk with an editor, even one they have just sanctioned, so long as that editor is making a good faith effort to discuss a disagreement. I see none of that in the case above. The comments are petty even if three of the 5 edits were clearly reverting vandalism/NOTHERE. If this were just an admin with a sharp tongue I would be less concerned by my first interaction with said editor was restoring clear OR into an article. When I challenged the restoration, much like the discussion above I got static. That's actually the second part. To me it comes across as rather imperialist to not even reply to the discussion. Anyway, I'm not sure if this is just something that rubs me the wrong way or if my concerns are legit. That is why I figured I would tell ask the first parent I saw :D I don't want to come off as petty but I do think the outcome should be a clear message that as an admin the editor needs to uphold a higher standard, not just avoid crossing the lines that all of us are expected to uphold. Thanks for hearing my rant/comment. Springee (talk) 17:24, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

I didn't realize Jorm was an admin. While I personally agree that admins should be held to a higher standard, I consider trying to enforce that to be above my paygrade. ~Awilley (talk) 17:08, 13 October 2020 (UTC)::
It turns out he isn't. I'm not sure where I got that impression but it was wrong. As such much of my complaint is invalid (see that I added then removed a comment). The up side is I was wrong that an admin isn't living up to that standard. I certainly disagree with a number of admins from time to time (especially when I'm right and they are clearly wrong :D ) but honestly I think they generally do a good job and they do live up my expectations of a higher standard with respect to civility and editing... other than when they are wrong and I'm right of course. Springee (talk) 17:48, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Precious anniversary [ edit ]

Cornflower blue Yogo sapphire.jpg
Six years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:10, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you Gerda ~Awilley (talk) 00:05, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Trump comment [ edit ]

As I see it, the flaw in this reasoning is that there is no way to ensure that follow-on editing is in fact "tweaking/refining/polishing wording" rather than total disregard for the previous discussion. Your approach requires that most editors are mature, fair, reasonable, and collaborative, which is simply not the case especially in areas of politics. No amount of wishing that were true will ever make it true, and I've yet to see such idealism work in the real world of editing. The relative peace we have experienced at Donald Trump has been the result of tighter controls and more structured processes, which regrettably mean that things take longer. Without that, content disputes are too often won by aggressiveness and intimidation. ―Mandruss  23:28, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

As Awilley knows, I agree with Mandruss on this, and I believe most seasoned AP editors agree as well. SPECIFICOtalk 23:40, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

YGM [ edit ]

Might want to check it and advise. Atsme 💬 📧 17:11, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Volunteer Marek [ edit ]

Awilley, because Volunteer_Marek removed this post I will repeat it here[[28]]. Some of VM's recent edits may be violations of your proposed sanctions here [[29]]. Springee (talk) 00:35, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

JimKaatFan [ edit ]

Hello, I see you blocked this user already for something. Can you please tell him to stop reinserting nonsense on pages about the Juventus-Perugia '99-00 match? [30][31][32][33][34] [35] Nobody called "Steve Slutz" from Kazakhstan played for Juventus. The match was not won by an own goal, but Alessandro Calori playing for Perugia scored the goal, as seen in the Herald Tribune article [36] (talk) 10:13, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

ONUS, NOCON, Consensus Required DS [ edit ]

Awilley, you were involved one of the discussions I found [37] [38] about the interpretation of the Consensus Required DS. My interpretation is that the DS works the same way as WP:NOCON. There are differing interpretations of the ONUS policy, and I feel it's time we started an RfC to ensure that no contradictions occur among these three policies. There are two proposals at WT:V, [39] [40], based on the interpretation that ONUS applies to new additions which have not yet achieved consensus, vs a proposed change to WP:NOCON based on the interpretation that ONUS applies to all inclusions [41]. Do you have any advice for an effective RfC? Kolya Butternut (talk) 02:28, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

I haven't had time to read that whole discussion, and I don't have any specific advice for an RfC. Maybe if you asked a more specific question... I personally think ONUS applies both to additions and removals of longstanding text. The longer something has been in place, the more "silent" consensus it has. Which is not to say that it shouldn't be changed. We're here to edit and change and improve. But the onus is on the person making the change to provide reasonable justification for that change, especially when challenged. And that applies whether the person is adding or removing material or doing a bit of both. ~Awilley (talk) 03:30, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
This is a difficult topic because the wording can be so confusing. Are you saying you think ONUS applies to both new additions to longstanding text and removals of longstanding text, so basically any change? My proposal was just to change the word "onus" to "WP:ONUS" and move the wikilink ONUS to NOCON. Kolya Butternut (talk) 03:41, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
I have been watching the never-ending discussion about consensus/onus and have to interrupt here to let Awilley know that my humble opinion is that CONSENSUS is what they are thinking of: you need consensus to add text or to remove text, and the longer the original has been the way it is, the stronger the consensus would have to be (for example, it might not be sufficient to declare a new consensus if two new editors turn up with one removing text and the other saying that was good). However, ONUS refers to a specific problem, namely what happens after someone removes an assertion saying that there is no citation or that the source is not reliable. Another editor should not restore the assertion merely on the basis that it has been there a long time. The person removing text does not have to prove that the text should be removed. The onus is on the person restoring the text to say why it should be restored (that is, explain how WP:RS + WP:DUE + anything else are satisfied). Johnuniq (talk) 04:24, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
@Johnuniq: Now that I follow the actual wikilink to WP:ONUS I see what you're talking about. It does kind of say that. "The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content." You're right, I was thinking about it in more of a general CONSENSUS perspective. Though I would disagree with the statement "The person removing longstanding text does not have to prove that the text should be removed." They still need to give a valid reason. Otherwise "Revert unexplained blanking" is a perfectly valid edit summary.
A side note: I'm generally not a fan of people using WP links like ONUS or BURDEN or PRESERVE or STATUSQUO in their edit summaries as justification for reverts. Probably my least favorite link used by people restoring disputed content is WP:PRESERVE. That can never override something like WP:V or WP:DUE, yet people still still use it that way. ~Awilley (talk) 05:38, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
[Y]ou need consensus to add text or to remove text...The person removing text does not have to prove that the text should be removed. This is the contradiction I am speaking to. The ONUS policy is just saying that verifiability is not enough of a justification for inclusion, we always need to achieve consensus that information is DUE, etc. But once information has achieved consensus, the person removing the text has to prove that it should be removed. The "onus" is on the person who wants to change consensus; this is why I believe the wikilink WP:ONUS should link to NOCON. Kolya Butternut (talk) 08:51, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
STATUSQUO is important since it determines the result of a no-consensus situation. I've seen more than one case where one side was allowed to force new content into the article while discussion was in progress, the discussion failed to reach consensus, and the uninvolved closer declared (over strong objections) that the new content should remain in the article because it had been there for the weeks-long duration of the discussion. Had procedure been more strictly enforced, the result would have properly been omission; failure to do so rewards aggressive editing, thereby encouraging more of it. ―Mandruss  09:58, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
I hadn't noticed the article WP:Consensus required written by User:El C, which seems to indicate that there is no greater onus to retain text than remove text under the DS, which I assume extends to Consensus normally. Kolya Butternut (talk) 19:32, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

Quick question [ edit ]

Awilley - Opening scene: article TP - lengthy discussions are taking place on article TP about the reliability of a source. A related side-discussion crops up after an editor discovers a potential error in the way the source was downgraded. Editor explains sequence of events leading to the error. Editor explains what happened, hats the discussion to save scrolling time, but leaves the discussion open, noting same in the top margin of the hat. Is that acceptable? Atsme 💬 📧 00:11, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

OK, a bit abstract/hypothetical, but it seems reasonable as far as I can tell. I guess it could depend on the details. A potential problem might be that an article talk page probably isn't the best forum for discussing the general reliability of a source, and such a discussion wouldn't be able to override a decision made at a general forum like RS/N. But the hatting is considerate. ~Awilley (talk) 20:17, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
Considerate is a good thing. The RS discussion is relevant in the context that the discussion is about the source's reliability for inclusion of the material in that particular article. But nevermind, I think there is a much bigger issue involved and I'm simply trying to find the path of least resistence. I don't want to cause any of our admins undue stress. 😊 Atsme 💬 📧 22:19, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
Out of curiosity, I just now took a peek into your edit history. It might be a good idea to step away from the Hunter Biden article for a few days. I think a lot of people are a bit on edge these days, and from a brief skim it looks like you're wanting to use lower quality sources to say negative things about a living person. That seems unusual for you...I seem to remember seeing you demanding higher quality sources especially for BLPs. ~Awilley (talk) 23:12, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
Absolutely - the "on edge" is why I was querying you about hatting, but to say I was "wanting to use lower quality sources" is quite a Bufono.svg[stretch]. Award-winning journalists are not low quality sources...unless what they're publishing doesn't align with the ideological bias on Wikipedia, then they become low quality, or at least, that's what I've gleaned. I haven't proposed any text, rather I simply asked for input, made some suggestions, and quoted Jimbo's argument about TDM and IAR. You might want to read that - maybe he needs an admin action? ^_^ I've grown weary of AP, and know when it's time to end discussions with certain editors and simply let them be wrong and yes, that time has arrived. Atsme 💬 📧 00:02, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – November 2020 [ edit ]

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Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 11:51, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Just wondering [ edit ]

It's a creative idea, but I don't see by what mechanism an admin makes up special editing rules for a particular article. EEng 08:58, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Followup: I see now it's DS. Next time it might be a good idea to state that in your post. EEng 11:33, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

I dread the coming mess [ edit ]

Recommend you keep an eye on the Mike Pence article, not to mention all other American government office (federal & state) article infoboxes. If enough editors force out the 'successor' field for elected or confirmed/incoming officials? Such inconsistency can be highly messy, when a big change like that (after so many years) is pushed. GoodDay (talk) 21:35, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm not trying to be flippant here, but it really doesn't matter very much to me when or whether the infoboxes list the successors. My primary concern here is to avoid having high profile, high traffic articles gold-locked again for everybody because a couple of people weren't willing to resolve their disputes on the talk page without edit warring in the article. ~Awilley (talk) 22:04, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
Just pointing out that right now the inconsistency caused at the Trump infobox, is quite sloppy looking in an encyclopedia. GoodDay (talk) 22:08, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
@GoodDay: I've been thinking about this... It would make sense to have a centralized discussion on this so we don't have parallel discussions at Donald Trump and Mike Pence and who knows how many other articles that come to different conclusions. I checked the template's guidance at {{Infobox officeholder}} and it clearly says, The infobox for an incumbent officeholder should not mention an elected or designated successor, or the end date of the term, until the transition actually takes place. So maybe Template talk:Infobox officeholder is the appropriate place for the discussion to change that globally. I also wonder if there's some compromise between putting "Joe Biden (elect)" vs. nothing at all. Like "Joe Biden (anticipated Jan 20, 2021)" or "Joe Biden (Jan 20, 2021)", or something similar that would give people less to fight over. ~Awilley (talk) 15:57, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
Such a RFC would certainly be ideal, with plenty of announcements to relative WikiProjects. FWIW - I've no problems with 'blanking' the succession part, as long as it's done consistently across all related articles. Consistency is where my concern lays. GoodDay (talk) 22:01, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Uninvolved administrators [ edit ]


I had a vague memory that you and Specifico have had several content disputes. I refreshed my memory with Editor Interaction Analyzer and quickly found some evidence:

Let my emphasise that this was a quick analysis and you both have been so active at Donald Trump that a complete analysis would require scrutinising hundreds of diffs.

I would argue that, due to your past disputes, you are not an uninvolved admin with regards to Specifico. Hence it seems that the sanction you imposed here is not within policy. Please remove the topic ban. Politrukki (talk) 08:04, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Hi User:Politrukki, are you talking narrow 2-week topic ban from AE where I initially opposed any sanction, but then suggested the short topic ban as a middle ground when another admin insisted that a sanction was necessary? I don't have the power to reverse that because one admin can't overturn a result imposed by multiple admins.
Responding to your other point, SPECIFICO reverting me a few times over a period of many years is not a content dispute. And I'm pretty sure that if you did dive down and do that thorough analysis you'd discover that I never reverted SPECIFICO back. If you read the section at WP:INVOLVED you will find the following sentence: "Warnings, calm and reasonable discussion and explanation of those warnings, advice about community norms, and suggestions on possible wordings and approaches do not make an administrator 'involved'. Often when I see intractable disputes or talkpage stalemates involving groups of entrenched editors, I will step in and try to nudge people toward a compromise. Sometimes I suggest it on the talk page, sometimes I'll make a "bold" edit to break a logjam. If you look at the section immediately above this titled "I dread the coming mess" you'll see an example of that. That is related to the dispute at Talk:Donald_Trump#Survey:_"Succeeded_by"_field. I personally don't care how that dispute resolves itself. If I'm being really honest I find it a bit silly. But I do care about getting it resolved in an orderly way and without edit warring, so not only did I block GoodDay (the user I'm discussing with above) for edit warring (a clear admin action), but I added a comment to the talkpage discussion here suggesting that users put some hidden text in the infobox to head off edit wars. I consider that to fall under "suggestions on possible wordings and approaches". And it probably would have been fine if I had added the hidden text myself.
Finally, if an editor could make an admin "involved" by simply reverting a few of their edits and disagreeing with them on a few talk pages, no admin would be able to remain uninvolved for very long because the system would be too easy to game. Another thing I've seen editors do after a "final warning" from an admin is to harshly criticize, swear at, mock, or complain about the admin, trying to make that admin involved so they can't follow through on the warning. If you were to search you'd probably find some of that between me and editors I've sanctioned, including SPECIFICO. It's not what the editor says or does, but how the admin responds that shows "involvement". ~Awilley (talk) 16:32, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
C'mon man. I know you know enforcement is a unilateral action and you don't need consensus to overturn your unilateral action. That's why, at AE, there's no need for uninvolved closers to asses the consensus. That would be cumbersome. (I have only read a portion of the enforcement request, so I have to take your word that there was a consensus.) C'mon.
"I personally don't care how that dispute resolves itself." – I don't doubt that, but non-trivial BOLD editing of mainspace – especially when there is an ongoing dispute – goes beyond "discussion". That may have the same perceived effect that supervoting has. And the community sets the bar of "article involvement" relatively low.
What you say about gaming is true, but irrelevant in this case as no such thing happened here. In my experience, administrators are granted – and should be granted – broad leeway to deal with editors who indulge in rudeness in "final warning" situations you describe.
I now remember that several months ago I read your mini essay. Even though we know that your intentions were pure (and even if one were to agree on your conclusions), your opening message looks like a textbook case of casting aspersions, which does not fall under the role of administrators. I now also notice that my colleague replied to you "The allegations against SPECIFICO seem unfounded.", but that was not my point rather than condemning casting of aspersions on many sides, cheers Politrukki (talk) 19:03, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
I'm not one of them, but I think there must be a few admins who have never working in American Politics. DGG ( talk ) 07:07, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

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Administrators' newsletter – December 2020 [ edit ]

News and updates for administrators from the past month (November 2020).

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Administrators' newsletter – January 2021 [ edit ]

News and updates for administrators from the past month (December 2020).

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Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 00:07, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Intervention and coaching [ edit ]

Awilley, would you mind taking a look at Noteduck's recent edits to PragerU and Douglas Murray (author) as well as how I'm handling it. I think Noteduck is a good faith new editor who is getting frustrated with opposition to their edits (especially mine). I'm not asking for an assessment of the merits of either side rather some coaching on how this exchange could be handled better. Thanks. Springee (talk) 04:16, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Disgusting [ edit ]

Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is defined as antisemitic:

Yet in -

You are letting a serial bully, who attacks Jewish editors on Wikipedia, to get away with this offensive rhetoric.

Disgusting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JackieMB (talkcontribs) 04:56, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Onceinawhile [ edit ]

If Onceinawhile's many offensive Holocaust comparisons and personal attacks against more than 5 editors (in the original reports) are not sufficient, they are continuing their battleground conduct while this request is open and in parallel with their conciliatory discussions with you on user talk:

  1. filing a fake retaliatory report against me. This also contains a blatant falsehood, I have made over 1,000 mainspace edits yet Onceinwhile says I only made 186. This false statement is a personal attack.
  2. canvassing for this report. A posting of little substance as most users, including Onceinawhile, edit these pages.
  3. Attacking unnamed editors who raised objections.
  4. Continued bludgeoning, forum post in which he in essence calls his opponents mad through the comparison made.

Onceinawhile did not apologise for calling editors who disagree with him racist. Onceinawhile did not apologise for making offensive Holocaust comparisons. 11Fox11 (talk) 05:17, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I checked those diffs and they just don't pan out the way you said. Onceinawhile didn't say 186 main space edits, they said 186 non-automated main spaceedits. ~Awilley (talk) 15:37, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
No, when I made my comment (at SPI, and here at 05:17) it read: "despite having made just 186 mainspace edits". After I commented on this falsehood, Onceinawhile made this deceptive edit at 09:13 in which they added "non-automated". They did not strike their false statement, and this deceptive addition confuses those who check this out. 11Fox11 (talk) 16:00, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Amendment request: Warning of Objective3000 closed and archived [ edit ]

The Amendment request, Amendment request: Warning of Objective3000, has been closed and archived. A permalink to the now closed amendment request can be viewed here.

For the Arbitration Committee, Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 23:12, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – February 2021 [ edit ]

News and updates for administrators from the past month (January 2021).



Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 19:09, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Happy First Edit Day! [ edit ]

Donald Trump - North Korea [ edit ]

Hi Awilley. I refer you to the discussion at Talk:Donald Trump#North Korea which has stalled. Myself, Jack Upland, Starship.paint, The Four Deuces, Levivich, JFG, Felix558, Berchanhimez and Mr Ernie have all expressed support for not only trimming the section, but the specific trimming that I attempted. Only Specifico and Neutrality have expressed opposition to that proposal. Could you please close the discussion and add this to the consensus list? I really want to avoid an edit war and we really have to move on and get onto other matters in the article. Cheers. Onetwothreeip (talk) 07:55, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

No. I already told you the best way to solve the problem. You clearlty see issues with Neutrality's version. SPICIFICO, Neutrality, and Snooganssnoogans see issues with your version. The solution isn't for me to swoop in and cement one version in the consensus list. Find a compromise. ~Awilley (talk) 16:01, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
The version being agreed to is already a compromise. In future, how many supporters would we need to implement a particular version? Are two editors enough to force a further compromise? Onetwothreeip (talk) 20:24, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
Hi Awilley, following up on these queries. I will need that guidance to engage further. Thanks. Onetwothreeip (talk) 21:07, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
Sorry, I thought those questions were rhetorical. It's not about one side winning or "forcing" a compromise. I guess I'm a bit unclear on what the problem is. People wanted the section to be shorter. It's shorter now. It's not the original trim you proposed, but that was never going to be the final revision. That's the nature of Wikipedia. Stuff gets changed. I've already suggested what I think is the best way for you to proceed above. It may not be ideal, but it's better than edit warring, and better than some admin stepping in to try to make one version permanent. ~Awilley (talk) 15:57, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
Yes, speaking more generally about editing on that article for future reference. I'm finding most of my edits on that article being reverted by the same editor. I'm intending that BRD be followed when this happens, and the support for my edits when I raise them on the talk page ranges from somewhat more support than opposition, to almost unanimous support. I'd like to know what is the minimum amount of opposition required to prevent an edit being implemented. Onetwothreeip (talk) 20:45, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
I looked at some of your recent edits, and your edit summaries kind of stink. You seem to be removing large amounts of content with little to no explanation. In fact, some of the reverting edit summaries have more justification then your original bold edits. I refer you again to my original advice. Try your edits in small chunks, making incremental improvements, starting with the non-controversial stuff, and using edit summaries to describe not just what you're doing, but why it needs to be done. ~Awilley (talk) 16:12, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
I'm not sure which edits you are looking at, but I've limited my size reductions on the Donald Trump article to only a few thousand bytes at most, like 1-3k. I don't mind explaining more in edit summaries, but I don't think this will change anything. The most important question I have is how many editors would it take to force a compromise and prevent the implementation of something that would otherwise be unanimous? Likewise, what is the minimum amount of support needed for something to pass? Onetwothreeip (talk) 21:42, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
I don't know. ~Awilley (talk) 16:19, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Fools! [ edit ]

Awilley, a while back you mentioned the benefits of a self imposed 1RR. As April 1 approaches marking a 6 month self imposed 1RR I have to say I think you are right and it is a good idea. I've been pleased to see that often the concerns I've had are addressed by others after posting the question to talk. I appreciate that you try to practice what you were preaching as well. Just thought I would let you know. Springee (talk) 05:59, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Wow, thank you for this. That's really good to hear. ~Awilley (talk) 15:13, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
It certainly forces one to slow down and think about their arguments and if a revert is worth making. If there is a case where an editor has been tbanned and the community is on the fence about lifting the ban it might be a good way to let them back in slowly (or course that does depend on the original reason for the tban). Springee (talk) 17:35, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – March 2021 [ edit ]

News and updates for administrators from the past month (February 2021).

Administrator changes

added TJMSmith
removedBoing! said ZebedeeHiberniantearsLear's FoolOnlyWGFinley

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added AmandaNP

Guideline and policy news

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  • When blocking an IPv6 address with Twinkle, there is now a checkbox with the option to just block the /64 range. When doing so, you can still leave a block template on the initial, single IP address' talkpage.
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  • There have been a number of reported issues with Pending Changes. Most problems setting protection appear to have been resolved (phab:T273317) but other issues with autoaccepting edits persist (phab:T275322).



Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 19:13, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
What is this?