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User talk:Epachamo

Looking for your comment on sources [ edit ]

I keep watching the changes at Anachronisms in the Book of Mormon and was wondering if you should post your thoughts on sources at the talk page there. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 17:06, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for January 5 [ edit ]

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Lost 116 pages [ edit ]

As I briefly mentioned in my edit summary, WP privileges secondary sources over primary, so a scholarly book about something trumps the testimony of someone who was actually there. There's both a certain craziness and a certain common sense reason for that policy. As for your attempt to explicate the controversy over this matter, I don't think any one would complain so long as it's confined to the footnotes.John Foxe (talk) 16:26, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

John Foxe, thank you for the courtesy of taking the time to explain your reasoning on my talk page. I agree and understand the secondary sources over primary. I think there are other reasons why my edit should stand that were not very clearly articulated. I've added those reasons to the talk page on Lost 116 Pages, hopefully they are better articulated. Epachamo (talk) 02:45, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

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Orphaned non-free image File:The black hammer.gif [ edit ]

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File:The black hammer.gif listed for discussion [ edit ]

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Disambiguation link notification for April 14 [ edit ]

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Could you take a look at this please? [ edit ]

Anti-Nephi-Lehi could use a clean-up. The first sentence was just re-written by a new editor - this one.[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:PeanutHat#Your_userpage. I know absolutely nothing about this group so the only thing I'd be able to do is more or less reduce it to a smaller stub, not a good idea. Maybe merge it with Lamanites and turn it into a redirect? Or I could at the Wikiproject talk page if you're too busy. Doug Weller talk 09:21, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

@Doug Weller:, I'll take a crack at it, I am going to have to do some research though, I don't know of many secondary sources that discuss it. Merging with Lamanites is not a bad idea. Epachamo (talk) 13:48, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
I'll defer to your judgement. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 10:33, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
@Doug Weller:, I think I'm done with the re-write. If you could take a look it would be appreciated. Epachamo (talk) 03:23, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

A barnstar for you! [ edit ]

Editors Barnstar Hires.png The Editor's Barnstar
Thanks for your great work at Anti-Nephi-Lehi. Doug Weller talk 17:55, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

I am truly honored! My first barnstar, thanks! Epachamo (talk) 21:34, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Anti-Nephi-Lehi [ edit ]

Hi, I saw that you posted on the library to-do list looking for feedback on Anti-Nephi-Lehi. I think I'm the only person who watches that page so you're stuck with me, haha. One thing I noticed is that you use the Book of Mormon itself as a source. If you can, it's better to use another source that summarizes the events in the Book of Mormon (because interpretation of religious texts varies, even if you're simply summarizing). Of course, there are times when it is appropriate to quote scripture directly. Ten Commandments in Catholic theology is an FA and I used it to help teach myself best practices about quoting scripture. Of course, finding a neutral source of a summary of the Anti-Nephi-Lehis is difficult. For the LDS Church, The Book of Mormon Reference Companion has a relevant entry. Now that I'm thinking about it more, I'm not sure of the best way to go about it.

I agree that you could easily merge Ammonites with the Anit-Nephi-Lehi page. However, the section on cultural significance is pretty long. It makes me wonder if it would be better to put information on pacifism and the Latter Day Saint movement on its own page. I can tell that you've done a lot of research! I know how much work that is. If you want to keep working on it, the next step is to thread those beads of research into longer paragraphs (the paragraphs under Literary Analysis look a little short). Also, the "there is widespread agreement" with the six sources borders on original research, and looks a little like overciting. I'd say choose the four best, or if one or two reference the others, that should be sufficient. Overall a very interesting read! I'm just sad that I can't give it a closer look. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 17:56, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Image moved [ edit ]

I've moved your image to Talk:Joseph Smith for discussion. Vsmith (talk) 16:31, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Primary source included [ edit ]

On the arda viraf, I included a link to the original source and "A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge. " which is true in this case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hippypink (talkcontribs) 18:20, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Image without license [ edit ]

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Your to-do Women and the Priesthood article [ edit ]

Hey, I saw your to-do article of Women and the Priesthood in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and I would like to help you write the article. PeanutHat (talk) 21:19, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

@PeanutHat I think that would be great!!! I would love that. I think I'm about a month or two out before I will have time to start on it (I'm finishing a couple other projects right now). For a title, I was thinking of "Women and Priesthood in the Latter Day Saint Movement". Go generic and have it include other branches, and if there is enough material, then create a specific one for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The transition of the Community of Christ to ordaining women is an interesting story, and would not fit in one about just the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Thoughts? Epachamo (talk) 01:53, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
@Epachamo Sounds great. I'll be there to help when you need it. PeanutHat (talk) 15:29, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

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Speedy deletion nomination of List of non-canonical revelations in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints [ edit ]

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Nomination of Barbara Snow (therapist) for deletion [ edit ]

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Good Job, Epachamo! [ edit ]

I just wanted to say "good job!" on the Joseph Smith Papyri article. The charts are really nice. (A few years ago, I worked on the Critical appraisal of the Book of Abraham, and I still find the subject matter fascinating.)--Gen. Quon(Talk) 19:50, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

  • @Gen. Quon:, Thanks, I wish I had time to do more! You were definitely a pioneer in making the whole Book of Abraham section what it is. It is really fascinating. Epachamo (talk) 13:24, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Joseph Smith Papyri edit [ edit ]

You posted a revert on an edit I posted on the Joseph Smith papyri, but I'm not sure I understood the gist of the revert comment. You posted "This article is about what Joseph Smith thinks was a revelation, not what Royal Skousen thinks is a revelation. Royal Skousen believes Smith himself thought it was a revelation, but was mistaken about the facsimiles."

The post I put up was that the evidence from the original texts of the Book of Abraham scribal documents such as we have them show that the references to the fascimiles in the current Book of Abraham version used today were both actually NOT part of the original text of the Book of Abraham. This fact does not really have anything to do with what Joseph Smith believed or not. He may have believed that he had a revelation to interpret the part of the fascimiles that he did, the evidence seems to so indicate. The original text evidence just indicates that the text of the Book of Abraham does not actually reference the fascimiles when looking at the original text itself, so it is an important fact based on the original documents that is appropriately posted on that Wikipage. Perhaps the wording could be revised to make this more clear. (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:29, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

  • @Geneva11: I had several problems with that particular edit that I'd happy to discuss.
1. The source was not super scholarly. It was Royal Skousen's curriculum vitae, not peer reviewed for sure.
2. Even if it were, I felt the summary misrepresented what Skousen was saying. From the source https://humanities.byu.edu/wp-content/uploads/royal-skousen-J2019.pdf:

The Book of Abraham was a revelation given to Joseph Smith, who later (mistakenly thinking it was a translation from the papyri he had in his possession) tried to connect the revealed text to the papyri by inserting two sentences, verse 12c and verse 14, into Abraham 1. The secondary nature of these two inserted sentences can be directly observed in the photos of folios 1a and 1b in the document identified as Ab2. Verse 12c is totally inserted intralinearly, not partially (as incorrectly represented in the accompanying transcription – and without comment). Verse 14 is not written on the page as are other portions of this part of the text (instead, it is written flush to the left), which implies that it is a comment on the papyri and that it was added to the revealed text. Overall, these results imply that all the facsimiles from the papyri (1-3 in the published Pearl of Great Price) should be considered extracanonical and additions to the revealed text of the Book of Abraham, not integral parts of the original text of the book

3. From what I get is that Skousen believes that Joseph Smith thought it was a revelation, but made a mistake. Skousen felt like the facsimile translation was not revelation. Skousen felt that Smith inserted references to the facsimilies within the text that were not inspired. Smith himself was the editor of the periodical they were first published in. Smith gave every indication that they were indeed revelation. Skousen's opinion is far and away NOT the general scholarly opinion, and even within the Latter Day Saint movement his discovery is not new or even agreed with. It is on the fringe.
4. We need to be careful with anything from Skousen. He has done some really good work with the Joseph Smith Papers for example, but he also has written a lot of apologetics which are not appropriate for Wikipedia. The source really matters with him. Epachamo (talk) 16:51, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

I find it interesting and concerning that your edits consistently remove content critical of the LDS church, and attempt to frame critics of the LDS church in as poor a light ad possible. Eudiamonia5 (talk) 13:09, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

@Eudiamonia5: I invite you to take another look at this particular section. I am literally being questioned by Geneva11 for removing what I felt was LDS Church apologetics. Epachamo (talk) 15:05, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

More details on Degrees of Glory reversion [ edit ]

Could I link to the Arda Viraf page on WP? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Arda_Viraf#Plot_summary — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hippypink (talkcontribs) 02:55, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

  • @Hippypink:Honestly, I'm not familiar enough with the subject to give a good answer to that. Be bold! Epachamo (talk) 13:04, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for August 12 [ edit ]

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Jeremy Runnels article overly critical of Runnels [ edit ]

I find your recent article about Jeremy Runnels overtly critical of Jeremy and attempting to frame him in as poor a light as possible. Example, your recent edits changing his statements to be "criticisms" or creating an entire section of the page about his seminal work, the CES letter but providing no link to this work. Eudiamonia5 (talk) 13:16, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

@Eudiamonia5:: NPOV is tough. It is truly not my intention to paint Jeremy Runnells in a poor light. If you feel like there is a better way to say it that frames him in a more NPOV light, by all means I welcome you to make the change. As far as links, there are actually TWO links in the article to the CES Letter, and do not feel there should be more based on WP:EXT. Keep in mind also that this article is just two days old, and there is much that should be added. Epachamo (talk) 14:59, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes. Perhaps this will get me started into Wikipedia. I stumbled on this article, and the tone was clearly biased. I checked who wrote it, then checked your other edits, and sure enough, it was a returned LDS missionary, faithful to the LDS church. I understand being a faithful member of a church does not automatically equal bias, but this article sure supports that assumption is often valid.



I am new to wikipedia. It is interesting to know what is the process of flagging users who appear to have an agenda to their contributions, particularly if this is not listed in their profiles "conflict of interest" section. I'd suggest you go research the Jeremy Runnells you made a page for further, and for wikipedia and yourself, have the integrity to make more edits to your first attempt so it is more balanced. And dies not read like a subtle hit piece. Eudiamonia5 (talk) 15:34, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

  • @Eudiamonia5: First off, you are most welcome to Wikipedia. I hope you do stay and become an editor. There are not enough people working on the LDS Movement, and the more backgrounds and perspectives we get, the closer we will get to the NPOV standard. Before editing, I would encourage you to read the WP:AGF article. Inferring a lack of integrity, or hidden agenda is the antithesis of assuming good faith. As far as my "hit piece" on Jeremy Runnells, PLEASE edit it so it doesn't sound like one, nothing would make me happier. When I created this article, I tried to add as many different view points as I could, and it is not finished. I do not apologize for adding viewpoints that are critical of Jeremy Runnells. Those belong in the article. You should note that I also linked to about a half dozen pages that explained Runnells criticisms of the LDS Church.
As far as me being "faithful to the LDS Church", I'm not sure how you gathered that from my Wikipedia edits. I truly try and put my personal biases aside. For what its worth, I also created the articles on The Black Hammer which is definitely notable, but if I'd had the "agenda" that you suggest, probably would not have been created. Conversely, I hope that article doesn't read as an attack on the LDS Church. Epachamo (talk) 12:45, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

August 2020 [ edit ]

A page you created has been nominated for deletion as an attack page, according to section G10 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

Do not create pages that attack, threaten, or disparage their subject or any other entity. Attack pages and files are not tolerated by Wikipedia, and users who create or add such material may be blocked from editing. Triplettay (talk) 22:41, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

I have reviewed the page, and it is not an attack page and does not qualify for CSD G10. —C.Fred (talk) 23:46, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of H. Michael Marquardt [ edit ]

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Lectures on Faith and the {{LDS}} template [ edit ]

Thanks for your additions to the {{LDS}} template/LDSverse module, including creating the Lectures on Faith pages on Wikisource and adding the capability to link to them! One heads up about a change I made to the Lectures on Faith part specifically, though, is that the citation structure now mirrors that of the Doctrine and Covenants. It gets slightly weird to write these things consistently since most LDS citations key off of a specific book (e.g., Alma) which is a subpage of (whichever edition of) the Book of Mormon or other standard work on WS, whereas the D&C is the "book" but also the standard work: it's the chapter/section numbers that are the subpages. In other words, in order to avoid the complexity of having a third structure for Lectures on Faith, where the individual lecture is the "book" (i.e., there's an "l5" book just like there's an "Alma" book, but there's no "s5" book for citing to section 5 of the D&C) and the chapter parameter ends up being redundant (the 5 already included in "l5"), I tweaked it to treat the LoF analogously to the D&C.

The tl;dr is that now you can cite the LoF generally as {{LDS|Lectures on Faith|lof}} (=Lectures on Faith), a specific lecture as {{LDS|Lecture|lof|7}} (=Lecture 7), and a specific verse as {{LDS|Lecture|lof|5|2}} (=Lecture 5:2), all analogous to D&C citations.

Hope that makes sense, and I'm certainly open to adjusting things (maybe we should change how it handles both the D&C and the LoF?), but definitely wanted to give you a heads up about why the format is slightly different than you last had it :) Happy to discuss in more detail here or in a more synchronous format, and thanks again for the additions, they're great! ― biggins (talk) 13:35, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

@Biggins: Awesome, thanks appreciate the changes, so much better. Epachamo (talk) 15:40, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

H. Michael Marquardt moved to draftspace [ edit ]

An article you recently created, H. Michael Marquardt, does not have enough sources and citations as written to remain published. It needs more citations from reliable, independent sources. (?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of "Draft:" before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page. Onel5969 TT me 21:28, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

The Friend [ edit ]

Thankyou for your work in trying to preserve the article on The Friend. The very fact this article is under any consideration for deletion shows how biases on Wikipedia play out against things connected with children and things connected with minority religions. Your dedicated efforts in trying to preserve this article are greatly appreciated.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:02, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Critical appraisal of the Book of Abraham [ edit ]

This was 95% written by one editor, most of this he wrote at Book of Abraham and then copied into a new article. I tagged it as an essay but he removed the tag. My reasons for seeing it as an essay include the use of the word "finally" several times, which he added, makes it look like an essay to me. But perhaps that's ok.Also for instance : "While the "Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar" only contains an explicit correlation between Egyptian characters[nb 4] and their purported English translation for Abraham 1:11–2:9, the document itself suggests that the hieroglyphs from the Small Sensen papyrus were used to translate much of the Book of Abraham.[72] This is supported by a quote from James Ratcliffe Clark, "

I'm not convinced there should be a separate article and a lot of this appears to be original research, perhaps why it looks like an essay to me. Doug Weller talk 14:37, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

@Doug Weller: I'll see if I can work on it over the next couple days. There is a bit of non-scholarly apologetics that have crept in for sure, and the background section is way too long. There are also sections, like anachronisms that are missing. Epachamo (talk) 15:19, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
Thanks. If you could try to remove the essay-style language it would be appreciated. I expect some opposition, but that's not unusual. Doug Weller talk 15:31, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

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Utah monolith [ edit ]

I am curious what your take is on the Utah Monolith discovered in a remote area south of Moab. What are your thoughts on it? I am of the opinion it may have been for some sort of religious purpose or ceremony or possibly a work of art placed there some artist. Octoberwoodland (talk) 02:49, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

@Octoberwoodland:: It's the craziest thing! Your guess is as good as mine. I'm thinking work of art, given the other works of art scattered through the state seems to be a thing: The Tree of Utah, Spiral Jetty, Sun Tunnels, etc. I wouldn't be shocked if it was some sort of religious thing. Epachamo (talk) 15:27, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Russell Nelson [ edit ]

Please do not unclose the discussion. It went through it's rounds on both the talk page and BLP noticeboard and the result was to exclude the content. Octoberwoodland (talk) 23:13, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

David J. Whittaker [ edit ]

Hi there, I removed your PROD because this one has been at WP:AfD before. You may have a valid point, though, so it might be worth taking this to AfD again. Spiderone 15:33, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Baptism for the Dead [ edit ]

Hi, I opened a discussion on Talk:Baptism for the dead. Feel free to contribute about this topic.--GenoV84 (talk) 23:37, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

@GenoV84: Thanks for the heads up! Epachamo (talk) 23:57, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Concern regarding Draft:Comparison of First Vision accounts [ edit ]

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Your draft article, Draft:H. Michael Marquardt [ edit ]

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What is this?