Wikipedia

User talk:Good Olfactory



Greek crossroads, neighborhoods, streets, and villages [ edit ]

Please reconsider your close of Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 January 13#Greek crossroads, neighborhoods, streets, and villages.

(It actually happened while I was replying to Place Clichy.)

The !vote was 2 delete, 1 keep, 1 abstain. The abstainer was caught recreating the parent of these categories after prior deletion, with an omicron replacing the 'o' in "from". The abstainer also is responsible for the comment wall of text that made everything difficult. I'd hate to see that tactic being successful.

There are only 2 articles in these 3 categories. That's why Marcocalle and Rathfelder and I have all tried to put these articles into better categories, and been reverted repeatedly (again, by the "abstainer"):

  1. Rathfelder
  2. William Allen Simpson
  3. Marcocapelle

It's a violation of WP:SMALLCAT.

William Allen Simpson (talk) 03:30, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
Sorry for closing while you were commenting – bad timing I guess. I would not be comfortable closing that discussion as "delete". WP:DRV can consider "non-deletions" as well as deletions, so I suggest using that. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:34, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Deletion review for Greek crossroads, neighborhoods, streets, and villages [ edit ]

An editor has asked for a deletion review of Greek crossroads, neighborhoods, streets, and villages. Because you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedily deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review.

William Allen Simpson (talk) 03:53, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. I have closed a lot of discussions lately. Perhaps I am tired and can't see the consensus amongst the long discussion. I appreciate sending new eyes to look at it. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:03, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Category:Hong Kong people of Shanghainese descent [ edit ]

Can you explain the closing of this CFD? There were some huge misconceptions about the subject matter presented in this category that the votes for delete do not seem to understand.--Prisencolin (talk) 01:16, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

There was a clear consensus to delete. There were a range of reasons users were in favour of deletion, which I don't need to re-type here. One user objected to all categorizations by descent, of which this is one. Other users emphasized that this was a non-defining trait of people, and the guidelines state that categorization should be by defining characteristics only. I see you disagreed with the reasons users gave, but you were the only editor, and there's not really such a thing as a consensus of one, especially when there are six !votes that go the other way. If you disagree with the close you can always use WP:DRV. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:36, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
It's clear that these people don't know what they're talking about when they say it's non-defining characteristic when existing literature very clearly spells out what defines this what distinguishes this group of people. Anyways there's definitely a wrecking ball energy going on at CFD at the moment, and considering the same group of people had been going around making mass deletions, the integrity of the discussion is suspect.--Prisencolin (talk) 01:47, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
I suggest you raise the issues at WP:DRV if you want to pursue it further. But—I can't really see how the result could be anything other than how I closed it, even if I agreed with your positions. I do not doubt the integrity of the discussion. I think everyone there probably expressed their opinion in good faith. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:49, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Mass nomination seems to apply in this particular discussion, considering the number of similar categories present at CFD at that particular time.--Prisencolin (talk) 01:57, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
I would not agree with that. In my experience, the use of the CFD process is no more or less popular lately than it has always been, and no one editor is dominating the pages with many nominations. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:22, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
Is there some other means of category creation I could go through rather than DRV, like an AFC for categories? Having participated in this process in the past I would prefer not to go through it if I had to.--Prisencolin (talk) 04:22, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
Not that I know of. It's pretty open – anyone can create a category. I have seen them proposed at CFD before they are created, but it's certainly the exception. See here for an example of a proposed creation at CFD. Good Ol’factory (talk) 05:00, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
That's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure that for my purposes it would be courteous to bring up the same discussion that just closed. Anyways the guidelines at WP:CFD does state "CfD is intended only for specific proposals to delete, merge, rename or split categories or stub types." My concern overall is that there is not space for a previously deleted category to "incubate" in order to become acceptable for category space again. Does that imply that once delete, a category can never come back again?--Prisencolin (talk) 05:09, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
Well, consensus can change. Sometimes these things take years, but I have seen previously deleted categories be re-created and discussed and kept. I don't think it happens too often though. As far as I know, there's no standard process for this for categories. Good Ol’factory (talk) 06:48, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Gauging possibility of DRV [ edit ]

  • So I went ahead and created another category of similar but not identical scope as this one, and as expected it was put up for CFD within a few days of existence. Given that it wasn't shelled on the spot for G4 I believe I complied with existing guidelines. My main reasons for DRV would be Purpose #3 "if significant new information has come to light since a deletion that would justify recreating the deleted page;" The information I wish to present is direct proof that the category is WP:DEFINING based on the guideline: ". A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define[1] the subject as having" One of the articles contained in the category, Tung Chee-hwa, is commonly and consistently defined as "Shanghainese" in reliable sources: random sampling from Google news. I have a few other arguments I wish to bring up but I suppose you don't want to see them here at this time.
  • Secondly, I'd like to draw attention to possible procedural errors in the discussion (Purpose #5), namely, the nominating user's history of making less-than-carefully thought out deletion nominations, which have apparently been highlighted several times at WP:ANI. There is also the instance in the current, on-going CFD where users are engaging in WP:ATA such as uncivil language (WP:USELESS, was literally used by two participants. I'm less sure about this other part because I think it may fall under the "to attack other editors, cast aspersions, or make accusations of bias (such requests may be speedily closed)." #8 in the "Should not be used" portion.

Thanks again for the advice.--Prisencolin (talk) 10:54, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

You can disregard my first point, as it's mostly just reiterating the arguments made at CFD, however what I wanted to ask of you is whether the second point would be appropriate to be brought up at DRV, or is it considered a personal attack?--Prisencolin (talk) 22:35, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for your posts. I am unsure. I have no objection to a DRV for the discussion that I closed, so you don't have to worry about me. I think it's a judgment that you would have to make. Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:40, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
DRV is underway: Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2021 February 9--Prisencolin (talk) 05:46, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Text restoration [ edit ]

Discussion on Wikipedia talk:Categorization [ edit ]

For any category-interested people, I have started a discussion here that I would love to have people participate in. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:39, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Bot deletion of Category:Pages with misplaced templates [ edit ]

I'm not WP:CFD regular, but given your merge closure of Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 January 19#Category:Pages with misplaced templates I was surprised to see Category:Pages with misplaced templates deleted by the bot. Do you know what happened there? ~ Amory(utc) 18:25, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

That category was merged to Category:Pages with templates in the wrong namespace. See the discussion you linked to. When a merge takes place, the nominated category gets deleted and the contents of the category get moved into the move target category. Good Ol’factory (talk) 05:20, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
Hmm, I didn't realize that Wikipedia:Category redirects that should be kept was intended to be a bit stingy, I would have thought a catredirect would have made sense given the extant links. It not being my area, I'm not really sure what's considered a reasonable amount of incoming links. I suppose not many are from discussions/etc. but rather users' dashboard pages, so maybe not? ~ Amory(utc) 18:11, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:New Zealand Liberal Party (1992) politicians [ edit ]

A tag has been placed on Category:New Zealand Liberal Party (1992) politicians requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz Read!Talk! 15:54, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Category:Executive branch of the government of the Republic of Artsakh [ edit ]

Your close at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 January 27#Category:Executive branch of the Republic of Artsakh.

Thought you might want to fix your move to Category:Executive branch of the government of Republic of Artsakh (missing "the" before Republic), but it should probably be Category:Executive branch of the Republic of Artsakh government to match most others in Category:Executive branches of government. Sadly, the latter was not nominated, and I didn't catch it.

Would you mind my Speedy nomination?

Thanks for all the recent work on the backlog!

William Allen Simpson (talk) 02:48, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

That would be great if you fixed it. I'm not sure how I managed to leave out the "the". And compliance with the rest of the tree would be good. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:54, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Category:People executed by Italy has been nominated for renaming [ edit ]

Category:People executed by Italy has been nominated for renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:15, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

A barnstar for you! [ edit ]

Administrator Barnstar Hires.png The Admin's Barnstar
For closing so many discussions at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion * Pppery * it has begun... 17:36, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
Thanks! Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:08, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Jackhoff666 [ edit ]

Can user:Jackhoff666 please be blocked ASAP. CLCStudent (talk) 23:22, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Please explain why you did this [ edit ]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1006267251?diffmode=sourceVitreologytalk 00:26, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

The article is in Category:Private islands of Tasmania, which is a subcategory of Category:Private islands of Australia, which is a subcategory of Category:Private islands. So the article is already in Category:private islands by subcategorization. The category Category:private islands is, therefore, redundant. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:28, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Norwegian people of Mauritian descent [ edit ]

A tag has been placed on Category:Norwegian people of Mauritian descent requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz Read!Talk! 14:33, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Your protection [ edit ]

Hello Good Olfactory I reverted the cascading protection option you placed here - this option should not normally be used for this type of page, as it will force the protection to be inherited downstream where it shouldn't be needed. If I'm missing something, please let me know. — xaosflux Talk 01:42, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you very much. You're not missing anything. I thought I was removing a protection – a lesson not to mess around when I don't know what I am doing! Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:47, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Nomination of List of composers who studied law for deletion [ edit ]

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article List of composers who studied law is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of composers who studied law until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.

Aza24 (talk) 08:38, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Category:American people of Sicilian descent [ edit ]

Hi can I ask why this category was deleted as part of the group CFD: link. I gave one vote towards keeping it and no other !vote mentioned a specific rationale towards deleting this one in particular. (until the very end at least) —-Prisencolin (talk) 18:56, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

All of the users who commented made some general statements, which I assumed applied to all of the catgories that were nominated. Category:American gangsters of Sicilian descent still exists, which goes to your comment about the Mafia. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:27, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
That's fair I guess. But I'm still wondering if the nominations should have been unbundled for a more thorough discussion. Is it possible for one item in a deletion discussion to be individually relisted?--Prisencolin (talk) 22:20, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
I have never seen a relisting like that done, but I suppose it could be somehow. Typically discussions are structured in such a way that it would be unusual for, e.g., one category kept and the others deleted. But it does happen. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:03, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
Any way you can manually restore it and just put it up for CFD again?--Prisencolin (talk) 20:41, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
I don't think that would be consistent with the consensus in the discussion. There was a clear consensus to merge these categories. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:33, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

one size fits all [ edit ]

love watching the sheep who clearly know all the details and the context in substantial legal and social history consequences - I am sure the constitutional lawyers who must have made a mint out of the court cases to do with Tasmania must be still alive somewhere on massive pension fortunes... JarrahTree 08:23, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

This above was relating to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2021_February_11#Category:Franklin_Dam - I really have no problem if categories are wiped out in the subject area - the thing is the expected followup of fellow editors in the subject area (1982/1983) was nil/zilch/nada. Very interesting time in OZ politics, and Tasmanian for that matter. So if it goes, no problems either way. I would have over 20 potential articles, but due to recent health issues my attention span to dig into the marvellous materials about the era and develop substantial articles to boot, is about zilch. Keep up the good work!!! JarrahTree 03:34, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Heritage and residence by city or region [ edit ]

You've closed all of these, so I'd like a review of my proposed text at Wikipedia talk:Category names#Heritage and residence by city or region. I've carefully gone through the arguments, and tried to distill them into a few sentences in the same vein as the existing text, without legalese or wikipedianisms.

William Allen Simpson (talk) 17:01, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the following sentences are clear in meaning: "The heritage of grandparents is never defining and rarely notable."; "The residence of parents and relatives is never defining and rarely notable." Is "heritage" a specific reference to "People of NATIONALITY descent" categories and "residence" a reference to "People of CITY descent" categories? If so, these references should be clarified. Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:53, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
As seen on the Wikipedia:Category names Project page:
  1. Wikipedia:Category names#Heritage = BARian people of FOOian descent. "BARian" is the person's nationality (country of citizenship) and "FOOian" is the person's ethnic ancestry. Confusing definition, as FOOian is used elsewhere as nationality. Would you support swapping BARian and FOOian in that definition to match other sections? Should we use yet another Metasyntactic variable? Baz?
  2. Wikipedia:Category names#Residence = People from Foo. So the answer no (CITY descent), as there are no Residence descent categories. But I've copied rarely from "place of birth is rarely notable", allowing well-documented exceptions.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 13:12, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
I'm also not sure that we have reached the stage where the grandparents' heritage is considered "never defining". I haven't really seen that opinion expressed much, and we continue to have many heritage categories, with contents often based on grandparents' (or farther back) heritage. Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:53, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
That was my distillation of comments such as "A single 15th-century ancestor and last name etymology are not defining in terms of descent." "[...] it doesn't appear to be defining in the descendants of those people." "The ethnicity/nationality/residence of grandparents is rarely notable, and umpteenth generations later is not notable or defining." We do have descent categories for ethnicity of parents. (Carlos thinks we should toss those, too, but there doesn't seem to be enough agreement.) But grandparents and above are 1/4, 1/8, etc. We need a "bright-line rule", because there are too many wikilawyers. Again rarely allowing well-documented exceptions.

William Allen Simpson (talk) 13:12, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

I've just found the old edit where you added BARian people of FOOian descent.

William Allen Simpson (talk) 17:11, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

We used to have much stricter requirements:

  • In addition to the requirement of verifiability, living people must have self-identified as a particular heritage, while historical persons may be identified by notable association with a single heritage.
    • Heritage categories should not be used to record people based on deduction, inference, residence, surname, nor any partial derivation from one or more ancestors.

Removed by All Hallow's Wraith in 2010, in concert with Debresser, discussion now at Wikipedia talk:Category names/Archive 10#Heritage. Sadly, I was rather busy at the time, implementing RFC 6013 for Linux and a DARPA grant on Project Defiance front end for TOR. Would you support putting that language in Categorization of people instead of Category names? (Both page names have changed over time, perhaps this will meet expectation about what belongs on which page)?

William Allen Simpson (talk) 17:31, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Wow, this is all taking me back. There are probably thousands of these categories. In retrospect and with a little more context, they seem like such a bad idea. So yes, I would support the re-introduction of language like this into categorization of people guidelines. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:24, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
See Wikipedia talk:Categorization of people#Parents, grandparents, relatives

William Allen Simpson (talk) 10:13, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Failed merge? [ edit ]

Category:People from the Athens Urban Area still exists and it is still populated with articles, while all other categories in the same nomination have been properly merged and deleted. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:05, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the notice. I have added it to the work queue now. I'm not sure how I missed that one. Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:45, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Category:Ambassadors of Canada to Taiwan has been nominated for renaming [ edit ]

Category:Ambassadors of Canada to Taiwan has been nominated for renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Paul_012 (talk) 18:01, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Line Islands [ edit ]

Hello Good Olfactory, If you don't mind, I think my edits need to be restored, as the reason why I emptied out the Line Islands (Kiribati) category was because it duplicates the category, which also needed some reorganisation. Tell me what you think, and apologies for not making my intentions clearer in my edit summaries. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:36, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Only part of the Line Islands are in Kiribati. I think Category:Line Islands is for the entire island group; Category:Line Islands (Kiribati) is for that part which is in Kiribati. So the latter is a subcategory of the former. Good Ol’factory (talk) 08:38, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
Understood, thanks for the clarification. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:41, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

My mistake [ edit ]

User:Antondimak notified me that in this nomination I accidentally forgot to remove Category:People from Karditsa from the list of categories to be merged, contrary to what I said in my rationale which was correct. Is there a possibility to retrieve a list of people that were in this category before merging, in order to recreate the catgory? Marcocapelle (talk) 10:18, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Wait, the only admin action required to fix the mistake is undeleting the category page of Category:People from Karditsa. Thereafter I can easily repopulate the recreated category with articles from the merge target Category:People from Karditsa (regional unit). Marcocapelle (talk) 13:19, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Hi Marcocapelle, I have restored the category now but have not populated it. Sorry for the delay. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:53, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
Thank you! It has been fixed now. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:50, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Category:Roman Catholic bishops by nationality has been nominated for merging [ edit ]

Category:Roman Catholic bishops by nationality has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Rathfelder (talk) 19:54, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

A toast! [ edit ]

An image of a toast sandwich, shot from the side.jpg Thank you for deleting my first category (that was deleted). It gave me lots of insight into Wikipedia's guidelines and taught me to create content of higher quality. Painting17 (talk) 18:20, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
What is this?